Cultivating Hope or Killing Dreams: A Reunion of Educators
This podcast episode encapsulates the inaugural segment of a two-part discourse centered on the pivotal theme of "Cultivating Hope or Killing Dreams." Within the context of the season nine finale, we are joined by esteemed guests who have previously contributed to our discussions on empowering educators. Our collective aim is to engage in a profound examination of how educators can affirm the uniqueness and value of each student, particularly those from marginalized backgrounds. The conversation delves into the challenges faced in fostering an inclusive and humane educational environment, where the rigidity of existing systems often acts as a barrier to genuine connection. We invite listeners to reflect on their roles in this endeavor and to contemplate actionable strategies that can transform the educational landscape into one that nurtures hope rather than stifling dreams. The continuation of this dialogue will be presented in part two of our conversation, scheduled for release on May 20th.
The ninth season of the Wheelhouse culminates in a poignant finale that brings together an esteemed panel of educators to reflect on the overarching theme of this season: cultivating hope versus killing dreams. In this first part of a two-part conversation, we engage deeply with the complex realities faced by students, particularly those from marginalized backgrounds who often find educational environments to be alienating or even wounding. The discussion raises critical questions about how educators can affirm the unique and precious lives of their students, explore the challenges in recognizing humanity within the classroom, and consider the implications of the educational systems that often prioritize efficiency over empathy. As we delve into these topics, the panelists and our guests —Jim Van Nada, Ruben Britt Jr., and Dr. Shervita West—share their insights and experiences, illuminating the urgent need for a more humane approach to education that fosters authentic engagement and values diversity. The episode ultimately serves as a call to action for educators to reflect on their roles as agents of change, emphasizing the profound impact their actions can have on the futures of their students.
Takeaways:
- This episode serves as the season nine finale, presenting a reunion-style conversation with esteemed guests.
- We engage in profound discussions on the theme of cultivating hope versus killing dreams in education.
- The panel addresses the systemic challenges that render many students' experiences in school alienating and wounding.
- Key questions arise regarding how educators can authentically recognize and support the unique lives of their students.
- The importance of recognizing the humanity within educational systems is emphasized as a means to empower students.
- This episode sets the stage for a two-part conversation, with part two scheduled for release on May 20th.
Links referenced in this episode:
Transcript
It's the season nine finale and we're doing it reunion style.
Speaker A:Join us for part one.
Speaker A:A new episode of the Wheelhouse begins right now.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to give us a listen.
Speaker A:Season nine features a pair of four like minded friends and colleagues.
Speaker A:Cathy Mone, Michael Pipa, Dr.
Speaker A:Alicia Munro, yours truly.
Speaker A:We've opened the conversation this season to think about empowering educators to cultivate hope.
Speaker A:In this 12th episode, we invited all of our guests from season nine to return and to join us to wrap up this season of cultivating Hope or killing Dreams.
Speaker A:We were so happy that Jim Veneta, Reuben Britt Jr.
Speaker A:And Dr.
Speaker A:Shavita west were able to take time out of their busy schedules to join us again here in the Wheelhouse.
Speaker A:This was such an incredible conversation that we'll share it with you in two parts with part two dropping on Tuesday, May 20th.
Speaker A:In both parts, we focused on three overarching questions.
Speaker A:1.
Speaker A:Sadly, we know that many students, and this is especially true for those students from marginalized populations, find school to be alienating and even wounding.
Speaker A:How can we demonstrate to our students that their lives are unique and precious?
Speaker A:Why is it so difficult to find humanity in our classrooms?
Speaker A:How might we remedy that?
Speaker A:And what will make this even more challenging in the years ahead?
Speaker A:2.
Speaker A:As we wrap up another school year and prepare for 25, 26, how should we think about the huge responsibility we accept to ensure that each of our children have open doors and unlimited possibilities?
Speaker A:How should we all respond to that charge?
Speaker A:And finally, three, from your lens and your areas of expertise, what does it mean and what do we want educators to remember about this season's theme of Cultivating hope or killing Dreams?
Speaker A:Keep in mind that at the end of the day, what we do for some children is even bigger than cultivating hope or killing dreams.
Speaker A:It's a matter of life and death.
Speaker A:You know, this was such a great conversation and there were so many intriguing ideas that were brought to the space.
Speaker A:Listen to the entire episode to hear the details together.
Speaker A:Let's cultivate hope for each and every student.
Speaker A:And now, episode 12 in a great conversation with Jim Veneta, Reuben Britt Jr.
Speaker A:Dr.
Speaker A:Shira DeVest, and our amazing panel.
Speaker A:You're not going to want to miss it.
Speaker A:Take a listen.
Speaker B:Good morning and welcome to the Wheelhouse.
Speaker B:I'm your host, Andy Cohen.
Speaker B:I mean Grant Chandler.
Speaker B:This is the finale of episode of season season nine.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:I've been looking forward to this conversation and we're gonna, we have invited, we have, we've invited our guests from other episodes in season nine to return to us to continue the conversation about cultivating hope or killing dreams.
Speaker B:I've been looking forward to this for quite a while and I'm super excited that we are going to wrap season nine with such really cool people.
Speaker B:So in true Housewives of Whomever fashion, it's like a reunion at the Wheelhouse.
Speaker B:So first, let's say good morning to my panel.
Speaker B:My dear friends and colleagues, Cathy Mone, Michael, Pipa and Elisa.
Speaker B:See you, Monroe.
Speaker B:Good morning.
Speaker C:Good morning.
Speaker C:Oh my gosh.
Speaker D:I couldn't, I could barely sleep.
Speaker D:It was like the night before school, you know, where you get the whole jitters, all that, like so exciting.
Speaker D:I've been up for hours, hours, hours.
Speaker C:So, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm excited about the format.
Speaker C:This will indeed be a table turning episode.
Speaker C:Yay.
Speaker B:You in reunion fashion.
Speaker B:You have no idea where this conversation is going to go, but it gonna be spicy.
Speaker B:So we're glad you're all here.
Speaker B:So good morning.
Speaker B:Good morning, Michael.
Speaker E:Good morning.
Speaker E:It's so good to be back and.
Speaker B:It'S absolutely great to have you back.
Speaker B:So we have three of our guests and then we're gonna have a mystery guest show up later on.
Speaker B:I hear Andy Cohen doesn't have a doorbell.
Speaker B:Here we are at the door.
Speaker D:Here's the spice.
Speaker F:Already.
Speaker B:We're spicy already.
Speaker B:We're spicy already.
Speaker B:I'm really excited to welco our guests back to the wheelhouse.
Speaker B:You know, season nine has been, I think, just a really, really powerful set of conversations.
Speaker B:And if you're listening for the first time to this, to this season, to this finale episode, I encourage you to go back to the first 11 episodes because there's some powerful conversations with some amazing educators.
Speaker B:And you know, we're going to extend that conversation today.
Speaker B:And you know, in this two part, in this two part conversation.
Speaker B:But I'm going to bring in my guests in and reintroduce them.
Speaker B:And I'm going to start with Jim Vaneda who was the first one to join us in the wheelhouse today.
Speaker B:This morning.
Speaker B:Jim is an administrator in a charter school somewhere in a location near you and he was with us twice.
Speaker B:He joined us in a conversation last season around powerful student care and he returned graciously in this season.
Speaker B:So Jim, welcome back again to the Wheelhouse.
Speaker G:Good morning.
Speaker G:It is an absolute pleasure to be back.
Speaker G:I was trying to come up with a good like housewife catchphrase to do my twirl with.
Speaker G:I didn't come up with anything.
Speaker G:But, Andy, thank you for having me on.
Speaker G:I mean, Grant, great to have you.
Speaker B:Great to have you.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So we're thrilled you're here.
Speaker B:Also joining us is Reuben Britt, who is a higher ed administrator and teacher.
Speaker B:He has been in education for a few years longer than Grant Chandler.
Speaker B:We won't mention that number.
Speaker B:He is also the co author, if you remember from earlier episodes, he's the co author with Dr.
Speaker B:Monroe of an amazing book.
Speaker B:Don't dismiss my story.
Speaker B:It was a great conversation that we had with Ruben.
Speaker B:I'm so glad you were back.
Speaker B:So, Ruben Britt, thank you for joining us this morning.
Speaker H:Rand, thank you for having me.
Speaker H:It's always a joy to be a part of a group that is trying to make a difference and talking about issues that are applicable to higher education.
Speaker B:Well, we're thrilled to have you.
Speaker B:Your whole career is about making a difference, sir.
Speaker B:So it has been, it's absolute pleasure to have you join us again in the wheelhouse for these two conversations.
Speaker B:And then also joining us today is Dr.
Speaker B:Shavita west, who is a former elementary principal.
Speaker B:She is a principal coach now by way of Georgia.
Speaker B:She's writing an amazing book.
Speaker B:You heard her talk about sensory learning spaces.
Speaker B:It was a great conversation and we are so glad to have her back.
Speaker B:Good morning, Dr.
Speaker B:West.
Speaker F:Good morning.
Speaker F:Good morning.
Speaker F:I'm so glad to be back and to meet two new friends this morning.
Speaker F:So, so looking forward to this really powerful conversation.
Speaker B:Well, good morning, everybody.
Speaker B:Hope you're all doing well.
Speaker B:And we will be joined later by a mystery guest when the doorbell, when the doorbell rings.
Speaker B:So what I thought we would do is just, I've just got a couple of questions that kind of, kind of move the conversation in very powerful ways.
Speaker B:And we're just going to all jump in.
Speaker B:And I can't wait to hear what you have to say.
Speaker B:You know, we've talked a lot in this, in this season about the importance of what we do in the work that and you all do, you all do similar work in terms of supporting each and every student.
Speaker B:And you do it very differently, but with the, with the different areas of expertise that you bring to the table.
Speaker B:But, you know, for years we have known that many students, and especially students from marginalized populations, children of color, LGBTQIA students, children who live in poverty, children who have IEPs, children who are English language learners, children who are here from another country.
Speaker B:And we could go on and on, sadly, on and on, sadly, about who gets marginalized in this country.
Speaker B:But we know that many students and they don't have to be from a marginalized population.
Speaker B:But it's even, especially more true for those who are find school and schooling to be alienating and even wounding.
Speaker B:So in that light, we've been talking about the opposite of that.
Speaker B:And so I just want to have a conversation about why and how we can demonstrate to each and every student that their life is unique, their life is precious, that they matter.
Speaker B:And then my bigger question is, why is that so hard?
Speaker G:Just a real light and easy question.
Speaker G:You know.
Speaker B:There was silence in this space.
Speaker B:Thank you for breaking that silence, Jim.
Speaker G:You know, I'm here to do that.
Speaker G:Silence makes me uncomfortable.
Speaker G:As an educator, I really should have learned to sit with silence.
Speaker G:It's not my thing.
Speaker G:But I, I remember the conversation we had last I was on.
Speaker G:We talked a lot about systems and, and rigidity of, of systems.
Speaker G:And those are created with ease in mind, with efficiency.
Speaker G:They're not very human.
Speaker G:Right.
Speaker G:So we as educators, I, I think it's, it's our job to introduce the humanity to.
Speaker G:As I would say, there is not a single educator who thinks that our current education system is perfectly working.
Speaker G:Right.
Speaker G:There are flaws in our day to day that impact us, that impact our students.
Speaker G:But my short answer is introducing humanity into rigid systems to help students feel welcome, wanted and loved.
Speaker F:I would add to that.
Speaker F:To be able to introduce humanity into cultures where there is these rigid systems in place, we have to humanize our clients who were really there to support and serve.
Speaker F:We have to see them beyond the behaviors.
Speaker F:We have to see beyond some of the things that the labels that we give them that become instant barriers to their learning in the classroom.
Speaker F:I think in education we have a way of setting up students before we even get an opportunity to really delve deep into what they need and how we can show up to support them.
Speaker F:I think we get so bogged down with the system.
Speaker F:Jim, you mentioned those structures that we have, that school has become very structured oriented versus very student oriented.
Speaker H:I'd just like to add to what Jim and Shavita just said.
Speaker H:I think it's important to have authentic engagement.
Speaker H:And through that students will have a better understanding of not only self, but also it provides them with a foundation that they exist, that they are somebody.
Speaker H:And all too often students are stereotyped.
Speaker H:And I think it's part of the training of these educators and they continue to live on.
Speaker H:And when we get new teachers that come into the system, they kind of breathe it on them too that these students are this way or that way and they're quick to characterize them, even recommend prescription drugs for them.
Speaker H:And it goes on and on.
Speaker H:But it's important that we have a authentic engagement with the students that they understand you and that you're listening.
Speaker H:That's the bottom line.
Speaker H:You must be a listener.
Speaker H:We, we talk about this, and I'm not trying to promote the book, but we talk about communicative action where both parties are learning from each other.
Speaker H:And if you don't know the student, then don't judge them based on that.
Speaker H:Sometimes just a brief conversation can turn a student around.
Speaker B:You know, I agree, agree, agree.
Speaker B:Right, Absolutely.
Speaker B:And you know the word label, you know, we.
Speaker B:Well, I don't know why we are so good in education about labeling children.
Speaker B:It's like we have to put a label on them in order to deal with them.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And the label is never human.
Speaker B:It's always a descriptive label of something in some way that they connect or disconnect to the system.
Speaker B:Why do we have to label children gen ed children, special ed children.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I mean, you hear things like, well, they're a trauma kid, they're a tier two kid.
Speaker B:They're a Stop.
Speaker B:Right, stop.
Speaker B:Those labels are alienating and wounding and they're simply a, they're a symptom of that rigid system and trying to put children into a rigid system.
Speaker C:And then when Jim started to speak, I really thought about systems.
Speaker C:And we had a real extensive conversation around systems.
Speaker C:And then I think about the Bowman and Diehl human resource frame.
Speaker C:And as we sit within that, I just see that the premise of power is flipped on its head where the system is controlling the humans instead of the humans are controlling the system.
Speaker C:So I did hear someone else try to.
Speaker C:I really want.
Speaker C:And, and I, and I know I popped in my comment.
Speaker C:I, I really want to unpack this before we move forward because if we're really focusing on that self reflection and that introspection that we need to take right.
Speaker C:As deliverers of service for human needs.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:Welcome to education.
Speaker C:And we are toggling between are we cultivating hope and versus are we killing dreams?
Speaker C:We really need to focus on who's controlling the narrative and the movement in the system.
Speaker C:It has really gotten to the point where, although it's a human resource frame, okay.
Speaker C:From the foundation of this country, education, the system is controlling a human being.
Speaker C:The human beings aren't controlling the system.
Speaker C:I'd like to unpack that before we go further.
Speaker E:I'm so glad you raised that and put it in that frame, Alicia.
Speaker E:Jim, when you started by Asking or inviting us to think about how we get carried by systemic inertia almost.
Speaker E:That's kind of my, my way of thinking about it.
Speaker E:I'm reminded of the cognitive and learning science of how the brain seeks to automate tasks that are going to be repeated.
Speaker E:And that's how we often function cognitively.
Speaker E:And that's, that's helpful because it frees up our minds to do other important work.
Speaker E:But it can become incredibly unhelpful and debilitating if we adopt the shorthand thinking of the bureaucratic system.
Speaker E:And to your initial question, Grant, why is it so hard?
Speaker E:You know, the system exists to produce convenience.
Speaker E:And so we want to believe that our jobs are, are really repetitive and can be automated to a certain extent.
Speaker E:We like to narrow things and simplify things.
Speaker E:We like to think that our work as educators is about disseminating content.
Speaker E:We like to, to narrow in those ways.
Speaker E:But maybe the essential awareness we need to cultivate in ourselves and, and each other is that this isn't automatic.
Speaker E:That when it comes to us working with another person to develop learning and sense of self, none of that is automatic.
Speaker E:Everything is made all over again from scratch in so many important ways.
Speaker E:Certain things can be automated, but not the relationship, not the understanding, not the learning, and not the pathway we take to achieve those things.
Speaker E:So I'm, I'm just being thoughtful about how, how our brains tend to work and how we often look past really essential questions we need to ask ourselves before we start.
Speaker D:And I think within.
Speaker D:Yeah, Michael.
Speaker D:I think within our spaces, I think Reuben mentioned this, that we, within our, our school, our district cultures, we perpetuate that when new teachers, new staff are brought into this space, they're listening, they're watching.
Speaker D:And so when we are using words in our actions that really perpetuate that thinking, then we are just continuing to cultivate that, right?
Speaker D:We're killing dreams.
Speaker D:And within that space, those just the words.
Speaker D:I mean, I had this conversation recently with one of my team members.
Speaker D:Think about your word choice and what message you're sending with that and just simply stop, stop saying that.
Speaker D:What can you shift?
Speaker D:What can you say that allows for this space to be about cultivating hope instead of killing dreams?
Speaker H:Kathy, I just want to just add to that.
Speaker H:I'm going to use this as metaphor.
Speaker H:A drug addict or alcoholic cannot be cured unless they do self reflection until they say, I have a problem, I'm an alcoholic.
Speaker H:Teachers, educators are not going to change until they understand that they are part of the, the colonization of education.
Speaker H:And when you look at the root of colonization.
Speaker H:It's all about control, dominance.
Speaker H:And in the process, those people who are part of it don't even realize that they are colonized, and they just think it's normal.
Speaker F:I have to add to that because I think it's a bigger picture when we have teachers and principals who are, for lack of better terms, boots on the ground.
Speaker F:But we have the decisions of what's happening in schools made from a higher level, and we have policies and legislature that comes down.
Speaker F:That, to me, dehumanizes the work that educators do.
Speaker F:But there's very much an expectation of delivery.
Speaker F:There becomes a disconnect.
Speaker F:It is us following what someone else has designed as a plan.
Speaker F:You know, all of us have worked with new teachers who come in, and I feel like they are so full of hope, and they want to change, right?
Speaker F:They want to change the world.
Speaker F:They want to empower their students to be, you know, great and to focus on all the things that I feel like we're talking about.
Speaker F:But then we start regulating what that looks like.
Speaker F:And in order to get this result, we need this curriculum taught.
Speaker F:We need this curriculum taught in this way that it becomes this colonization that happens because we're aspiring to, or we're following guidelines that are not necessarily created with the best intentions of kids in mind.
Speaker B:And so it's a combination, right, of what Shavita has just said, and also helping educators.
Speaker B:You know, I want to echo also what Ruben said, because we are.
Speaker B:We as educators, right?
Speaker B:We have to recognize that we're part of the problem, right?
Speaker B:We didn't inherit it, we didn't cause it, but we're part of it.
Speaker A:And we have to be willing to look in the mirror.
Speaker B:We have to be willing to do something differently.
Speaker B:It's really interesting because as I travel around and talk to teachers about powerful student care, and, you know, I often hear, well, we already do that.
Speaker B:If we were really doing that, we would have very different outcomes.
Speaker B:We would have a very.
Speaker B:So I, you know.
Speaker B:And so I, you know, I always counter that with, you know, I know you.
Speaker B:I know that's what you intend, right?
Speaker B:I absolutely believe that's what you intend to.
Speaker B:But is that what each student experiences?
Speaker B:Because there's a difference, right?
Speaker B:There's a difference.
Speaker B:And I think.
Speaker A:What we're talking about.
Speaker B:Is so important to the conversation because there's the rigidity of systems, there's the efficiencies.
Speaker B:There's all of this, however, and there's the legislation which messes everything up, right?
Speaker B:Because you got people who are making decisions that don't know what they're talking about.
Speaker B:But at the end of the day, educators are the one in the classrooms.
Speaker B:Educators are the ones interacting with students on a daily basis.
Speaker B:They have decisions to make on a daily basis for each and every child.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker C:So I hear three key words.
Speaker C:I hear colonization disconnects.
Speaker C:And I'd like to add another piece to that conditioning.
Speaker C:And I heard Dr.
Speaker C:West say, when teachers come in, they're hopeful, they're energetic, and then they hit the system.
Speaker C:Boom.
Speaker C:And it.
Speaker C:And it's almost like a collision.
Speaker C:Boom, Right.
Speaker C:All of a sudden, they start to insulate themselves inside their safe spaces, which is their classroom.
Speaker C:They may want to venture out maybe once or twice a day for personal reasons or if they have a duty, and then they scurry back in their safe space.
Speaker C:If it's not safe for our educators, it's definitely not safe for our students.
Speaker C:So this has always been a for real conversation on the wheelhouse.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:So as Dr.
Speaker C:West says, Shavita says there are disconnects in the system.
Speaker C:Reuben says they're colonized space.
Speaker C:Jim has identified, hey, it's the system.
Speaker C:So Michael said, if we're human and we have authentic relationship, right?
Speaker C:Let's.
Speaker C:Let's step out of the way of being conveyors, the almighty gurus and conveyors of this knowledge, wisdom, and intellect and just be human.
Speaker C:That's how we're going to get to whole educator, whole students, powerful student care.
Speaker C:But Ruben is right.
Speaker C:We have to sit with ourselves first.
Speaker C:So it's just a comment.
Speaker C:And as I go around the country and internationally, people don't like to sit with themselves.
Speaker C:Let's be critical of others.
Speaker C:I look at everyone except for myself.
Speaker C:The blame game is real, folks.
Speaker C:But yet we're supposed to be servants, and we're supposed to serve with humility, to dignify others.
Speaker C:So I'd like to throw that out for some conversation.
Speaker E:Alicia, you reminded me of a dear friend and colleague who was finishing his career as I was starting mine.
Speaker E:And he would.
Speaker E:He would say disruptive things to me to begin my day, do disruptive things by walking by my classroom and maybe making an obscene gesture that the students could see in my direction to see what I would do.
Speaker E:And he would then, you know, come in and.
Speaker E:And say in front of the kids things like, so, Mr.
Speaker E:Pipe, I hope you're being a good custodian of the American popular culture today.
Speaker E:He would come by and say things to me like, I noticed, Mr.
Speaker E:Piper, that not all the students in this room are white, but you are.
Speaker E:And I'd say, well, Mr.
Speaker E:Milligan, so are you.
Speaker E:He said, yeah, but I'm not a practicing white person.
Speaker E:And he walked away.
Speaker E:And throughout those first few years that I learned from him and we worked together, he was always making me look at myself and pay attention to my thoughts.
Speaker E:And he'd listen to me opine in response to questions he was raising.
Speaker E:And that disruption of my thinking.
Speaker E:The boom, as you described, when our new teachers meet the reality of this ponderous bureaucracy, the boom happens in so many different ways.
Speaker E:And you said we retreat to our safe spaces, our classrooms.
Speaker E:And I think we also retreat to our safe spaces in our own minds.
Speaker E:And those safe spaces are biases of all different kinds.
Speaker E:And so that constant normalizing and normalizing of the necessary discomfort and distress that we have to experience as educators in order to liberate ourselves, to become available, and to prioritize the right things, that's what you have me thinking about as we talk about, why is it so hard?
Speaker E:And what must we do?
Speaker E:And how must we prepare ourselves to do it?
Speaker E:Because that boom's real thing, isn't it?
Speaker F:That Michael was such a great, I think, just a great description.
Speaker F:I think the mentality and mindset that happens for us as.
Speaker F:As educators.
Speaker F:The word disruption, you know, creates a little uncomfortableness because it requires you to change something.
Speaker F:It's shaking up something.
Speaker F:It's a different ideology.
Speaker F:And until we are comfortable with being disruptors, not in a bad way, but in a very intentional way, to change what is what we consider to be the status quo, whether it's for students who have those sensory processing issues, are those students whose voices are not heard, who don't feel like they have a sense of belonging in a classroom, then we're going to keep doing what we have been doing.
Speaker F:We have to change the.
Speaker F:Ideally, we have to change the idea that disrupting is a bad thing, that we need to disrupt.
Speaker F:We need to disrupt for excellence.
Speaker F:As a matter of fact, school district that I'm currently working for, our superintendent says that all the time we're disrupting for excellence.
Speaker F:And I think that that's important, you know, for students to have educators who are willing to stand up and disrupt.
Speaker G:For excellence, well, and talk about cultivating hope.
Speaker G:If our students see us disrupting our own thought patterns, disrupting our districts, they are seeing someone who's willing to think that things can be different.
Speaker G:And if.
Speaker G:If we want our students to dream, they need to have the ability to imagine what if it's not like this what if this label that I've been called my whole life or my whole educational career, what if that is not all I am?
Speaker G:What if these convenience systems could be changed?
Speaker G:And yeah, that disruption is modeling for them that they can also.
Speaker G:And if, if the educators can't and won't, the kids won't necessarily have that example.
Speaker G:So that, that's powerful.
Speaker C:Oftentimes, if students take risk.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So, and, and, and that's what I'm hearing.
Speaker C:You know, when we take risk, right, we're supposed to encourage students to take risks.
Speaker C:And we have several different models of best teaching practices and approaches that supposed to celebrate and promote students to take risk.
Speaker C:And then when they take the risk, and if the risk is out, if they have colored outside the line, then it becomes punitive.
Speaker F:And I think that the reason why is we're comfortable with losing control.
Speaker F:When I think about our education system, there's a lot of control, there's a lot of holding on to the reins that if, you know, I'm just crazy enough to believe if we truly let students do what they're capable of doing, we would see an engaged population of students in our classrooms.
Speaker F:And I'm not talking about just, you know, from a standpoint of just letting kids, you know, just be kids and be wild and free, but to let them really apply to me, it's the genius that they have.
Speaker F:Our students today come with so much more than what I can ever imagine as a student, myself, as a teacher, as a principal, that I've observed over 20, you know, some odd years.
Speaker F:They come in, they're.
Speaker F:They're wielding technology, you know, almost as a second language in the classroom.
Speaker F:But we're afraid.
Speaker F:We're afraid to let go, that it's coloring outside.
Speaker F:Someone said the lines, that it's not regimented to them being just paper, pencil, you know, students.
Speaker F:And that causes that level of disgagement to happen because we're still trying to educate them the way we were.
Speaker B:So when we are thoughtful disruptors, we send a powerful message to students.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That they matter and that we're their ally.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:To use that word as a noun.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That we are their ally and that we create, to quote Mel King from an early episode, we create spaces where children can breathe.
Speaker B:He can't join us today, but I needed to quote him.
Speaker B:I needed to quote him because I absolutely love that he said it so passionately.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I needed to be in a space where I could breathe.
Speaker B:I'm thinking about, well, the only way that we can create those Spaces is to be thoughtful disruptors.
Speaker B:And our children need to see us disrupting on their behalf.
Speaker D:And that becomes the new normal.
Speaker D:Michael used that word, like normalizing that all of these things that we do, that we come into, that we inherit, we've normalized that.
Speaker D:So how do we change that normal for our students?
Speaker G:Been thinking of the idea of breaking rules, right?
Speaker G:We're talking about rigid systems.
Speaker G:We're talking about disrupting.
Speaker G:And it doesn't have to be like a district policy that one breaks.
Speaker G:But Michael, in your story about your colleague, he asked you questions in front of students that were breaking a social rule, so to speak.
Speaker G:Right?
Speaker G:And so we can imagine all different ways that we can break norms, rules, and show ourselves as someone who does that.
Speaker G:And I don't have necessarily any examples from my life or career because I.
Speaker G:I'm all.
Speaker G:I've always been a rule follower.
Speaker G:But I'm feeling inspired to think, what are ways that I can just make people uncomfortable, be a little bit of a pest, annoy people a little bit?
Speaker G:You know, how often have you seen that amazing educator where students roll their eyes at them, right?
Speaker G:But they feel safe and comfortable to roll their eyes.
Speaker G:And, you know, kids show annoyance, but they're probably thinking, right?
Speaker G:So getting under people's skin, that's.
Speaker G:That's just what's going through my head right now, that it doesn't have to be some big, you know, I broke a policy that was big and dramatic.
Speaker G:But small ways to create that discomfort get people thinking, that's also personal.
Speaker G:That's stepping just a little outside the.
Speaker G:The lines of the system.
Speaker G:And we talk about kids who color outside the lines, helping them understand what are those boundaries, what is detrimental disruption.
Speaker G:Because they're going to try it and they're going to.
Speaker G:They're going to do some things we do not want to see.
Speaker G:And how do we help them disrupt in ways that are productive to them?
Speaker G:And maybe I don't want to use the word productive.
Speaker G:That feels very colonized to reference your statements earlier.
Speaker G:But beneficial, positive, leading to growth, making.
Speaker F:It okay to take risks, to know that if I'm taking a risk for change, or to advocate.
Speaker F:I think I like that word better, Jim.
Speaker F:Advocate.
Speaker F:To advocate for what I need as a student, then I see that as an empowerment versus it being a detriment to me in the classroom.
Speaker C:So if I'm going to do that, I have to be confident with myself.
Speaker C:I have to feel esteemed.
Speaker C:I, too, have to feel safe as an educator.
Speaker C:And Shavita, the disconnects happen throughout the system.
Speaker C:So oftentimes teachers, I've seen teachers have really great relationships with students and then really not produce in the classroom, right?
Speaker C:And then I've seen teachers have horrible relationships with students, but they rule with tyranny.
Speaker C:So students are scared and then they produce, right?
Speaker C:They're intimidated because to produce, what are we?
Speaker C:What do we achieve?
Speaker C:That balance, right?
Speaker C:Where we could just be human in ourselves.
Speaker C:Okay, so back to what Jim said.
Speaker C:When I walk into a space just by my mere packaging, the stereotype is that I am going to be a disruptor.
Speaker C:So if we have in real conversations, as we do in the Wheelhouse, I identify as Afro Latin, right?
Speaker C:I have a couple of extra letters after my name.
Speaker C:I have credentials up the kwazoo.
Speaker C:So just a seat at the table.
Speaker C:That one's going to say something.
Speaker C:So I get the side eye as I sit down.
Speaker D:I don't even know you.
Speaker C:But just, just the mere fact that I earned my seat at the table and I question the earning power of the other seat and people that are sitting at the table, but that's neither here nor there.
Speaker C:That's definitely another conversation.
Speaker C:But what I'm saying is we really have to understand.
Speaker C:And Shavita, I'm going to go back to what you said and I don't want to lose that thought.
Speaker C:At the beginning of our conversation, it was around cultural responsiveness and you said it quietly, but I picked it up and I noted that because that is what, what really moves the needle within humanity is the idea of understanding.
Speaker C:And I believe Mel said that, that everyone outside of ourselves is diverse.
Speaker C:I need to lift that because that's what set with me when we had the conversation with Mel.
Speaker C:So every, every individual in this space, we are all diverse because none of us are cookie cutters of the other.
Speaker C:How do we respect those different worldviews and realities and lived experiences?
Speaker C:Because that's where authentic engagement starts.
Speaker C:And if we can't engage with each other, then how are we, Jim, going to be role models for our students?
Speaker C:I've witnessed students act and behave a lot more kind to each other than teachers are to one another than school leaders are to the teachers.
Speaker C:So where do we achieve that balance so that we really have a healthy educational ecosystem?
Speaker A:And that wraps up Episode 12 in this season of the Wheelhouse.
Speaker A:A special thank you to our guests, Jim, vaneda, Reuben, Britt Jr.
Speaker A:And Dr.
Speaker A:Shavita West.
Speaker A:Part two of this amazing conversation drops on May 20th.
Speaker A:Don't miss it.
Speaker A:Are you a like minded educator who's committed to promoting hope subscribe to our all new the Wheelhouse newsletter@the wheelhouse.substack.com Tell us, how are you seeing each of your students as human beings?
Speaker A:How do you make the system less rigid and more responsive to the needs of each of our students?
Speaker A:What are you doing to build community, a feeling and set of relationships?
Speaker A:How do you inspire others to see and value diversity is something and someone simply outside of yourself?
Speaker A:And how can we here at the Wheelhouse help you reach these aspirational leaps and jumps?
Speaker A:You know, we really do want to hear from you and we hope you'll subscribe to our all new the Wheelhouse newsletter.
Speaker A:The Wheelhouse is a production of Students Matter, LLC.
Speaker A:New episodes of season nine will drop every Tuesday beginning February 25th and now continuing through May 20th.
Speaker A:Our show's theme music, Off We Go, was written and performed by Cody Martin and obtained through soundstripe.com you can find me on LinkedIn, Bluesky and of course, stop by our website and check out.
Speaker B:What we offer at www.ourstudentsmatter.org.
Speaker A:Together, our goal is to prove to each student and to each teacher that they are both distinctive and irreplaceable.
Speaker A:Until next time.
Speaker B:Remember, we got this Sam.
