Stop and Pause: Innovation with the Neurodivergent Learner in Mind
The salient point of this podcast episode revolves around the imperative of recognizing and embracing neurodiversity within educational environments. We delve into the notion that future-ready schools must prioritize not merely the standardization of thought but the comprehensive understanding of diverse cognitive processes. Our discussion critically examines the traditional educational frameworks that often marginalize neurodivergent students, proposing instead a transformative approach that celebrates the unique perspectives each student brings to the learning experience. In this enlightening dialogue, we are joined by Chiara Latimer, the esteemed director of the Center for Neurodiversity and Autism Path Program at Rowan University, whose insights illuminate the path toward creating inclusive educational spaces. Together, we explore strategies to cultivate environments where dignity, agency, and belonging are paramount, ensuring that all students are empowered to thrive in their unique ways.
Additional Notes
The discourse presented in this enlightening episode traverses the imperative of a radical humanization within the educational framework, emphasizing the necessity to cultivate an environment where hope and innovation are not just abstract concepts, but foundational pillars. The dialogue initiates with an exploration of the phrase 'stop and pause,' which serves as a metaphorical invitation to educators and stakeholders to reflect on their practices and the underlying belief systems that inform them. The notion that the future of education hinges upon understanding rather than standardizing minds is posited as a transformative shift in pedagogical paradigms. Within this context, the episode delves into the critical issue of neurodiversity, advocating for an educational approach that recognizes and celebrates the diverse cognitive profiles among students. By engaging with Chiara Latimer, a distinguished advocate for neurodiverse education, the conversation illuminates the myriad ways in which schools can evolve to accommodate and empower all learners, particularly those whose experiences deviate from traditional norms. The episode culminates in a call to action: to design educational experiences that are inclusive, affirming, and responsive to the holistic needs of every student, thereby ensuring that futures worthy of their dreams are not merely aspirational but attainable goals.
Takeaways:
- The future of education necessitates a profound humanization of our school systems, emphasizing understanding over standardization.
- Neurodiversity should not be perceived as a condition to rectify, but as a spectrum that enhances our collective potential.
- Creating educational environments that honor the diverse ways students process information is paramount for fostering inclusivity.
- Empowering educators to embrace neurodiversity leads to innovative practices that benefit all learners, not just those who fit conventional molds.
- The conversation on neurodiversity must include varied identities and experiences beyond autism, such as dyslexia and ADHD.
- To truly support neurodiverse students, educational approaches should be flexible and responsive to individual needs, promoting agency and dignity.
To read the paper by Chiara J. Latimer, Patrick D. Massaro, and Dr. Alicia S. Monroe:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/27546330251356082
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Until Next Time Remember: Keep your doors open and your hearts even wider.
Transcript
What do we mean by the phrase stop and pause?
Speaker A:And what if the way forward for our schools isn't about standardizing minds, but about understanding them?
Speaker A:Every single one.
Speaker A:There's so much to talk about.
Speaker A:A new episode of the Wheelhouse begins right now.
Speaker A:The future of education depends on a radical humanization of schools.
Speaker A:Places where hope is cultivated, opportunities are opened, and innovation is harnessed to serve humanity.
Speaker A:Only then can we create futures worthy of each student's dreams.
Speaker A:We begin by cultivating hope.
Speaker A:We ensure possibilities are real and accessible.
Speaker A:We design futures rooted in humanity.
Speaker A:But the future is already here, and it must be deeply human centered.
Speaker A:The Wheelhouse exists to create an inclusive community of empowered educators who believe that together we can disrupt the transactional nature of schooling and reimagine what it means to learn, lead, and belong.
Speaker A:We envision districts, schools and classrooms where everyone, every student feels confident, capable, optimistic, well supported, and emboldened to be and to become who they're meant to be.
Speaker A:Each episode of the Wheelhouse explores the knowledge, practices, and stories that bring this vision to life.
Speaker A:Our team, Kathy mone, Michael Pipa, Dr. Alicia Munro, and I, Dr. Grant Chandler, alongside our guests, take on the fundamental challenge of realizing what we most want every student to experience in school.
Speaker A:Dignity, agency, and belonging.
Speaker A:In season 11, we ask a simple but profound question.
Speaker A:Where are we going?
Speaker A:We strive toward future ready learning that keeps humanity at its core.
Speaker A:Under the theme future Ready Innovation rooted in humanity, we affirm that future readiness is not defined by devices or data, but by our shared humanity.
Speaker A:True innovation doesn't replace human connection, it amplifies it.
Speaker A:A future ready school prepares students to thrive by honoring their identities, nurturing their creativity, and equipping them to engage with a changing world, all from a place of strength and purpose.
Speaker A:Over the past few weeks, we've talked about belief systems that shape our schools, the joy that fuels learning, and the promise of technology when it stays anchored in the human experience.
Speaker A:Today, we widen the lens.
Speaker A:What if the way forward for schools isn't about standardizing minds, but about understanding them?
Speaker A:Every single one.
Speaker A:What if innovation doesn't begin with a new device or a policy, but with a deep respect for the full spectrum of how human brains work, feel and create?
Speaker A:In this episode, we're stepping into the world of neurodiversity, adhd, autism, dyslexia, and all of the many ways we process the world not as a condition to fix, but as perspectives that expand what's possible.
Speaker A:Because when we talk about being future ready, we can't just prepare some minds.
Speaker A:We must design for all minds.
Speaker A:Today's guest, Chiara Latimer, is the director of the center for Neurodiversity and Autism Path Program at Rowan University.
Speaker A:Kiara has dedicated over 10 years of her career to supporting neurodiverse students in clinical and educational settings.
Speaker A:She served as the inaugural co chair of the neurodiversity affinity group for the Eastern association of Colleges and employers.
Speaker A: In: Speaker A:With a focus on career readiness and employer education, Khiara continues to promote the importance of empathy and inclusion in the workplace through professional conferences and training for employers.
Speaker A:You're listening to season 11, episode four of the Wheelhouse, where we're joined by Kiara Latimer for a powerful conversation on innovation rooted in humanity.
Speaker A:Let's dive in.
Speaker A:Good morning.
Speaker A:Happy Tuesday.
Speaker A:We are back in the wheelhouse.
Speaker A:I'm Dr. Grant Chandler with my amazing friends and colleagues, Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa, and Dr. Alicia Munro.
Speaker A:Good morning.
Speaker B:Good morning.
Speaker A:And once again, a completely unrehearsed choral Good morning.
Speaker C:Well, we do have to admit, you know, we make a little eye contact.
Speaker C:We're making sure that we do not disappoint you, dear friend.
Speaker D:Like, we.
Speaker C:We want to make sure.
Speaker C:It's just lovely.
Speaker C:So, good morning.
Speaker A:I saw Michael with that little wink, like, okay, we're ready, right?
Speaker C:Yes, yes.
Speaker C:We.
Speaker C:We are in sync.
Speaker A:We are.
Speaker A:I am.
Speaker A:I say this every week, but this is a topic that I think is really important to the conversation.
Speaker A:And it's really important for, as we were bantering before we started, you know, our guests said, you know, you always meet someone who knows someone or has a family member who is right.
Speaker A:And so I think this is a really, really important conversation.
Speaker A:I'm super excited to have our guest here.
Speaker A:And so I'm going to.
Speaker A:I want to just kind of introduce the topic, and then I want to welcome her in and we can talk.
Speaker A:So, you know, we've been talking about in our.
Speaker A:In our pursuit of innovation rooted in humanity, we've talked about belief, we've talked about joy, we've talked about technology.
Speaker A:But what happens when we expand our understanding of humanity itself?
Speaker A:That's why this topic is so important.
Speaker A:When we recognize that every mind, every way of processing, attending or feeling is part of the human story.
Speaker A:What would schools look like if they were built for all brains and not just the ones that fit into the mold?
Speaker A:If innovation is rooted in humanity, then humanity must include all ways of thinking, right?
Speaker A:Thinking, feeling, and being.
Speaker A:What if neurodiversity isn't an exception, but it's the key to designing schools that work for everyone, what if the true test of a future ready school is how it serves the brain that doesn't fit the traditional blueprint?
Speaker A:I'm so intrigued by this topic, by this work, by the importance of this conversation.
Speaker A:And I am thrilled, beyond thrilled, to welcome Chiara Latimer, who's the director of the center for Neurodiversity and PATH at Rowan University, my new friend.
Speaker A:Good morning and welcome to the Wheelhouse.
Speaker E:Good morning and thank you so much for having me.
Speaker E:I'm excited to be here.
Speaker A:We are beyond thrilled to be able to pick your brain and to learn from you and to share.
Speaker A:So, you know, let's just, you know, I know we've got some questions that we send ahead of time and we can talk about that, but for our listeners who are like, what's neurodiversity?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:What's this really about?
Speaker A:Could you just start us off way up in the, in the stratosphere?
Speaker A:What does that term mean?
Speaker E:I think that I'm so glad you're starting with that, because that is the question that we often get.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:People are using language in terms.
Speaker E:They don't even know what it means or how to appropriately use language.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:And so neurodiversity to very, to be very simplistic.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Neuro meaning brain.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:And then diversity.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:The range.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:The variation of brain functioning, cognition.
Speaker E:And so ultimately, neurodiversity is a way that people, individuals function differently in the world because of brain difference.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:That doesn't just mean the way someone thinks.
Speaker E:So it's not just cognition.
Speaker E:It's also how they may choose to behave, how they interact with the environment around them, and how they're impacted also by that environment as well.
Speaker E:And so it is like a full range.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Of those differences.
Speaker E:And oftentimes people say, like, oh, I have neurodiversity.
Speaker E:No, that's not true.
Speaker E:That's not accurate.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Neurodiversity makes up these different brains that exist, and then we are, as a group neurodiverse.
Speaker E:An individual can be.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Neurodivergent, which would mean that they themselves operate and function in the world in a way that's different than the way the neural majority exists.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:So those who have been traditionally labeled as, what some people have said as neurotypical previously, but we know no one is normal or typical.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Societal standards have led to that.
Speaker E:And so it allows us to kind of clarify what's what.
Speaker E: long, probably like about the: Speaker E:But there's been a history of neurodivergent people, right, Autistic self advocates especially, who are having conversation related to what is this idea, this brain difference that exists and that it's always existed.
Speaker E:We're just now finding terminology to call it to label, to help people find identity in terminology.
Speaker A:Well, I can see why you are so well respected because you are brilliant.
Speaker A:You just took a very complicated term and a very complicated idea and you made.
Speaker A:Made it really, really powerfully easy to understand.
Speaker A:So I appreciate that you took the time to talk about that.
Speaker A:Why is there before we jump in?
Speaker A:And I know looking at Kathy's face, she's ready to ask some questions.
Speaker A:Why is there so much confusion around this topic?
Speaker E:I think that a lot of the confusion is really rooted in the different bodies, right, that have contributed to this work.
Speaker E:And so a lot of it has been that for years, in order for an individual to be recognized as neurodivergent, that was connected to a medical diagnosis, right?
Speaker E:And so when you go in for an evaluation, whether it's with a psychologist, psychiatrist, a pediatrician, right, whoever it is, a medical doctor says to you, in some capacity based on these areas, that you have difficulty, you can now receive this diagnosis and get access to support.
Speaker E:So thinking about, like the medical model framework, right, that has caused some confusion because a lot of individuals, and specifically self advocates, have kind of rejected this idea of a deficit approach to who they are and how they exist in the world.
Speaker E:And.
Speaker E:And so unfortunately, though, the way the systems are set up, I have to receive this deficit approach diagnosis or evaluation in order to gain access to services that I may want or need, right?
Speaker E:And then the confusion builds even more when you think about those services.
Speaker E:How do they operate?
Speaker E:We'll leave that for below deck.
Speaker E:But the reality is that we have to think about, like, who's playing a part, right?
Speaker E:And so there's the systems who are saying, like, hey, this is the way we've done things.
Speaker E:This is how we get people access to what they need.
Speaker E:And then there are the individuals who are saying, you know, I don't have to have an official diagnosis.
Speaker E:I'm choosing to embrace neurodivergence for myself.
Speaker E:And whether or not someone writes that down on a sheet of paper, I'm choosing to say, this is how I identify in the world and how I exist.
Speaker E:And so I think those two cause a contradiction Right.
Speaker E:And therefore cause people to be confused.
Speaker E:And it's really not as confusing as people try to make it.
Speaker E:But I do believe that the challenge has always been these two kind of differing approaches.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Kind of coming to a head and kind of clashing at times.
Speaker E:Not all the time, but finding ways now to how can we operate in a world where individuals can choose to embrace their identity and it doesn't have to be so rooted in all of the challenges that they have while also avoiding, you know, this rainbow butterfly, because real people have real challenges every single day.
Speaker E:And so we don't want to discredit that either.
Speaker A:So I just want to go back for just a moment, and then, Kathy, I'm going to give you the floor.
Speaker A:We have been talking since the wheelhouse, since the inception of the wheelhouse, and certainly since we kind of redefined the wheelhouse back in season nine, about how the wheelhouse exists to celebrate and support each student and each of their identities.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like whoever they are and whoever they aspire to be.
Speaker A:And so for those of you who are listening, we mean this too.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:This is also a very, very important part of someone's identity.
Speaker A:So when we think about.
Speaker A:When we've been talking a lot about black and brown folks, we've been talking a lot about LGBTQIA folks, and we will continue to do so.
Speaker A:But we also mean anyone who identifies as neurodivergent.
Speaker B:So before Kathy moves into space, please understand, neurodiversity has always been part of the platform.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Absolutely right.
Speaker B:So I need to uplift that intersectional identity.
Speaker B:Kiara and I have been together over five years doing this research.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Just recently as a research team, me being the principal investigator of two brilliant researchers and academics and scholars on.
Speaker B:And grant, I hope that you place our article that link as part of the intro to this session.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:To really understand the terminology that Kiara just so eloquently shared with the entire listening audience and to really unpack and dispel the myths around this beautiful mosaic of neurotypes that she's getting ready to introduce to us in this conversation.
Speaker B:So for me and for all of us, neurodiversity has always been part of our conversation.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And we are lifting it up and reminding everybody that that is a part of this work and a part of the goals and the principles of the wheelhouse.
Speaker A:Kathy.
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, Chiara, as you were speaking, I am a practitioner in the K12 space.
Speaker C:And so I, you know, regularly experience this.
Speaker C:This, you know, platform to where there's this you know, we're going to come at it with a deficit model, but then there's this advocacy around, okay, but I, it, I exist and it's not about deficits.
Speaker C:So it is, it is interesting to watch individuals, adults get into that space of advocating for themselves.
Speaker C:What's most challenging is having children when you're thinking about, you know, 4 to 18, 19 year olds that don't understand what's happening and where they fit and they're in this space of negativity and deficit model, all of the, and their parents not understanding what's going on and how to advocate necessarily for their children.
Speaker C:And then it's this beat down of, well, something's wrong with me, something's wrong with me and something's wrong with my child.
Speaker C:And so all of these pieces around when you become old enough and why, you know, to the point of, okay, wait a minute, how do we combat that in this space of, as an educator, when I'm living and breathing that and not fully understanding it, along with all of these other pieces that are coming at me that I've got to learn, I've got to understand.
Speaker C:And I know that's a lot that I just put on the table, but that's the reality is that it is very difficult for children, especially who don't understand what's happening and they're being told and taught over and over again that there is a deficit, that something is wrong with them.
Speaker E:Yeah, I, I will kind of go back to part of what I said earlier, which is that, you know, in no way do I want to minimize that.
Speaker E:There are real challenges that individuals face every single day.
Speaker E:And I say that because, like, I recently had a conversation with a student who just said, you know, someone was like, this is my superpower.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:And they were like, for years though, I have had to combat this thought that there are things that I don't do well and it is related to this part of my identity, but then there are things I also do exceptional because it is part of my identity.
Speaker E:And so I love that he was basically just kind of sharing that.
Speaker E:We don't have to minimize either side of it.
Speaker E:We do just need to give acknowledgement to both.
Speaker E:And I think that one of the areas that can be challenging is as practitioners and educators, sometimes we're taught from a historical model that is about just one side.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Which may be how to identify the challenges or when you see these challenges, you know, we need to make referrals, we need to be acting, we need to be doing or saying Something, however, the way that we talk about it can make a difference the language that we choose to use.
Speaker E:And Dr. Zosa Zaks wrote this wonderful article about how basically we can be neuro affirming and using basically autistic professionals.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:As the paradigm shift, which is I think the title of his article.
Speaker E:And so there are individuals who not only identify as members of the community, but are also practitioners who are educators who can say, you know, let's think about how we can adapt what we're doing to be more neural affirming so that children, teenagers, young adults are not only hearing, you can't, you can't, you won't, you won't, but they're also hearing, you can.
Speaker E:It may take X, right?
Speaker E:You can, it may take longer, you can, but you may not want to.
Speaker E:That's just the reality of it sometimes.
Speaker E:And when I say that, you know, we hear parents and individuals share educators like they don't have any friends or no one's playing with them.
Speaker E:They seem to only engage in parallel play.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:These are the types of comments that are made.
Speaker E:I don't want to play with you right now and I don't feel lonely.
Speaker E:Which could be the case for some individuals.
Speaker E:That's all shaped by our right views as part of the neuro majority of what it looks like to have happiness or to be in part of a group.
Speaker E:Those may not always be the same shared feelings.
Speaker E:And so we really have to take a step back, I think, and allow ourselves to one review the language of course, that we're using when we're describing things.
Speaker E:And as someone who used to work primarily with children, before I started working with adults, it used to really make me laugh how much we think they're not understanding and they're completely understanding exactly what's happening.
Speaker E:And so I said to a family who didn't want to share with their daughter that she was autistic.
Speaker E:They were like, I just, we don't know what to say.
Speaker E:Maybe we shouldn't say anything.
Speaker E:You know, what do we do, what do we do?
Speaker E:And so I said, well, where does she think she comes every day?
Speaker E:Because literally autism is on the building name and she can read.
Speaker E:And so they went to like prep themselves to have this conversation.
Speaker E:And she's like, I know, I know.
Speaker E:Like, I know I'm autistic and the parents are like, floor what she knows.
Speaker E:She said, it's on this building every day and on the van that picks me up and I'm okay with it.
Speaker E:I'm there with my Friends, and we're all here together for group.
Speaker E:And it just kind of made them laugh because.
Speaker E:And me too.
Speaker E:Not because of the fact that, like, we thought that she didn't.
Speaker E:I thought she didn't know.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:I. I thought it was funny that they have for so long been prepping themselves for this really hard conversation.
Speaker E:And then she was like, I'm completely aware of what's happening.
Speaker E:I know why I'm here.
Speaker E:And sometimes we're talking around individuals and not talking directly to them.
Speaker E:No matter their age, we should be talking to them as we are going through these people processes and explaining, you know, how it can be really loud and it hurts your ears.
Speaker E:That's because you're able to process the environment and sound stronger than other people.
Speaker E:Does that make it seem like something's wrong with me or is that giving the facts?
Speaker E:Some people may not experience it that way.
Speaker E:That can make it difficult.
Speaker E:Now what maybe do you like that can help?
Speaker E:Are they earbuds?
Speaker E:It may not be earbuds.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:It may not be noise canceling headphones.
Speaker E:Maybe the person just says, I don't want to wear anything, but I'll be okay if I can leave the room for a few minutes.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:And so I think that a lot of work that we have to do as educators and practitioners is really taking like a step back from all the training, you know, all the readings, and really saying, like, let's look at this as an individual who's in front of me and fully engage them in this process and give them language that I can to help to explain what's going on right now and then give them the space to give me feedback about what I'm doing, what I'm saying.
Speaker E:And it has to be that back and forth conversation.
Speaker E:And it's not always verbal conversation.
Speaker E:I want to be clear about that.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:But there has to be this exchange of information that is taking place.
Speaker C:It's almost as if we're humanizing education.
Speaker B:No, it is.
Speaker B:It is us humanizing Kathy.
Speaker B:Education.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So if the teaching and learning and communicative action process is reciprocal.
Speaker E:Right, Right.
Speaker B:Give me an opportunity to communicate the way and in the space that I.
Speaker E:Feel most comfortable and allow that to be different than what everyone else may be doing or not doing.
Speaker A:So that means that leaders and teachers have to interrogate their mental models about what it means to be what, smart, to be capable, to be focused, to be on task.
Speaker A:I mean, pick your word.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We have to really rethink what our mental models are around each and every student and around some of these constructs that we use for traditional transactional herding.
Speaker E:Absolute.
Speaker A:Because that's not going to serve well a student who is in any way, in any way, not the norm, not the typical, not how we think we should be organizing school in a particular.
Speaker D:Way, or how we as educators broaden our understanding of the pathways that learners are needing to take as they engage with their learning.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:And we're going to see that that's only going to continue to increase.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Because we also have generations that are coming through our education system who already have a more heightened awareness of different identities, of things that they need, also of what they want.
Speaker E:Everyone who has on noise canceling headphones or has a fidget in their hand is not someone who may be identifying as neurodivergent.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:But they may be choosing to utilize a tool that has now become more available to them because of the fact that we have provided people with more information about what they have access to, to and what they can utilize.
Speaker E:And so I do believe that, you know, thinking about what a classroom can be, right.
Speaker E:What can look like, we talk about universal design for learning.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:We talk about these approaches, we talk about making sure we're differentiating and you know, we use all these different terms.
Speaker E:But when it comes to practice, right.
Speaker E:What does that look like in real life application, that's when we start to come up against all of these traditional norms that have been set in place.
Speaker E:Right?
Speaker E:And so who says I can't learn while also coloring while you're talking?
Speaker E:Who says, I'm not listening to you.
Speaker C:Because your eyes aren't on me.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:You're not looking, you're not looking at.
Speaker C:Me, you're not listening.
Speaker E:And how many times do we say like, you know, or hear like, eyes up here or you're not paying attention.
Speaker E:What does attention look like?
Speaker E:And who's decided who's paying attention and who's not?
Speaker E:And so I can say this because I even had to catch myself the other day because my daughter was trying to color something.
Speaker E:I was like, she's like, but can you also read this book?
Speaker E:And I was like, wait, you want me to read and you're also going to do that?
Speaker E:And I had to stop and pause, which is what I think we're going to have to continue to do, right?
Speaker E:Stop and pause.
Speaker E:And I had to challenge immediately my own thought, which is that you can't listen to me read this story and color at the same time.
Speaker E:Meanwhile, I'm handing out coloring sheets and, you know, got A whole creative station in our center telling people, do what works for you.
Speaker E:But now here I am in a moment where I need to stop and recognize that I have to challenge this for myself in this moment.
Speaker E:And so I said to her, you, I don't know, Mommy.
Speaker E:Sorry.
Speaker E:Like, go ahead.
Speaker E:You color and I'll breathe.
Speaker E:After years of being told by my own father, there is no way.
Speaker E:And it's okay I can say this because he knows it's true, there is no way that you are writing that paper and listening to music.
Speaker E:I read this wonderful article, actually, about individuals with ADHD who actually do really well, thriving in musical backgrounds while doing work as long as the music is familiar.
Speaker E:And I have said that to people for years.
Speaker E:For years.
Speaker E:And so if we don't stop and pause and really challenge what we're saying to someone, you can't walk in my class, Sit down.
Speaker E:Who said they're not listening?
Speaker E:Find a space for them to do what they need to do while also engaging in the learning environment.
Speaker D:Chiara, there are two things that you've said that are just ringing so true for me.
Speaker D:The first is how context and the change in context can throw up barriers to our vision.
Speaker D:When you move from the practitioner role to the parent role, you know our set of beliefs change, right?
Speaker E:Absolutely.
Speaker D:And so that.
Speaker D:That just adds so much more complexity.
Speaker D:And when I think of the shifting roles of adults who are working in schools and how those subtle changes in roles can interrupt their capacity to.
Speaker D:To see clearly, to hear clearly.
Speaker D:The other standout observation you shared is the importance of having neurodivergent professionals leading the conversation about the spaces in which our children are learning, the ways and the pathways toward learning that children take.
Speaker D: And it reminded me back in: Speaker D:As parents, our questions like, we're all over the place.
Speaker D:Will our child be able to live an independent life?
Speaker D:That was one of the first concerns.
Speaker D:And she calmly looked at us and said, oh, my goodness, why on earth not?
Speaker D:And we had recognized from her disposition early in the conversation that we were being served by an individual who was neurodivergent.
Speaker D:What she taught us in 60 minutes about our child, about ourselves, and about possibilities for the way forward, I could write a book about.
Speaker D:It was so incredibly affirming, and it just.
Speaker D:There was so much clarity.
Speaker D:And it was the first time in four years that we spoke to a professional who we felt saw our child, demonstrated that she saw our child did things that our child responded to in ways that she had never responded to before.
Speaker D:It was incredibly powerful in moving us forward.
Speaker D:And we had spoken to a lot of professionals at that point.
Speaker D:So having that professional who is also a neurodivergent human being leading the conversation for me personally, that rings very powerfully true.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker E:And I think that also I appreciate you sharing that experience.
Speaker E:And I also believe that when we come into contact with neurodivergent professionals who are sharing, oftentimes they are very candid about, like, this was my experience.
Speaker E:I'm not saying what someone else's experience will be.
Speaker E:And I think I really appreciate that too, because so often people jump straight to like the myths, right?
Speaker E:Like, everything's going to be great and my child's going to be like a savant.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:But there are individuals who do not develop verbal language but find ways to communicate.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:There are individuals who may not live independently, but they still have well meaning lives, you know, where they are happy or find joy in the things that they're doing or engaged in.
Speaker E:And so there are individuals who may have what is independent living with a support system in place and that can range.
Speaker E:And so I really appreciate when we come in contact with neurodivergent professionals in particular and they're sharing their experience, but they're also, again, so I think aware about saying, but that was me.
Speaker E:That may not be the case for every person.
Speaker E:I think that, you know, oftentimes when we talk about neurodivergence, autism gets highlighted.
Speaker E:But then we also forget about like dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia.
Speaker E:And when we think about the classroom, if I say to an educator, I'm autistic, I have adhd, they probably understand that a little bit more.
Speaker E:When I start to explain that I'm dyslexic or someone starts to explain what it means to be dyspraxic.
Speaker E:Now we start to get down into areas that people do not feel comfortable with.
Speaker E:They don't have understanding of these identities.
Speaker E:And this all is falling underneath this umbrella, right, of neurodiversity in these varying neural types.
Speaker E:And so when I'm working with, you know, professionals and we're talking, everyone just jumps and starts assuming we're talking about autism.
Speaker E:But we're not just talking about an autistic individual.
Speaker E:We're talking about a variety, right, of identities and neural types that exist.
Speaker E:And so my dyslexic student.
Speaker E:It's not that they can't read.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:We have to challenge these myths because then the thought is like, oh, you can't read.
Speaker E:You're not going to be able to read.
Speaker E:And those are myths that are not true.
Speaker E:That's not true.
Speaker E:It does mean that the way they process words that's written down is different.
Speaker E:But when we look at, like, what are their auditory strengths, though?
Speaker E:What is their ability to visualize words and stories and information?
Speaker E:And so as I start to expand my view, then I don't get as upset if someone has to have a calculator because they actually do have dyscalcula.
Speaker A:Yeah, I kind of want to.
Speaker A:I want to paint a picture.
Speaker A:And Kara, I want you to correct anything that I say that is not true.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:It's okay.
Speaker A:So when we think about.
Speaker A:When we think about this transactional, hurting nature of schooling, right?
Speaker A:It is based on giving privilege to certain ways of thinking, to certain ways of behaving, to certain ways of feeling and saying that some ways of doing that are better than others.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker A:And if we're going to disrupt that, then the big thing that I'm going to remember from this conversation today, besides your genius, is three stop and pause.
Speaker A:Because the way we move away from this for educators is to interrogate, right, Interrogate mental models about how we extend privilege to certain ways of thinking, believing, behaving, feeling, whatever.
Speaker A:And that if we really want to solve this issue for not only our neurodivergent students, but for everybody else, if we really think about making sure that our classrooms are responsive to our neurodivergent students, won't they be better for every student in the classroom as well, Kiara?
Speaker E:Absolutely.
Speaker E:Absolutely.
Speaker E:Because now we're shifting right into universal design for learning, which means that what you need, you can have access to.
Speaker E:And it doesn't have stipulations on things like documentation or evaluations.
Speaker E:Because then we also had to recognize there are some individuals, right, who may not receive the same support or evaluation that someone else may.
Speaker E:They may not be recognized or identified the same way.
Speaker E:And so when that happens, do we also say, well, you know, since you don't have a piece of paper that says that you qualify, you don't get support here.
Speaker E:No.
Speaker E:We have to come up with strategies to implement things that can be applicable to anyone if they need it.
Speaker E:Choice is important.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:But then we have to push ourselves past that.
Speaker E:So, so often we're very focused on compliance.
Speaker E:Our goal is, you know, no one wants to get sued.
Speaker E:Everyone Wants to be compliant.
Speaker E:I'm in compliance.
Speaker E:I'm in compliance.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:But it's not just about being in compliance.
Speaker E:It's also, again, bringing that humanity back to the classroom and saying, my job is to create a learning environment that is best for all students.
Speaker E:I'm going to have to challenge myself every year, every week, every class session to do that, because what's happening today is not going to be permanent.
Speaker E:It can't be permanent.
Speaker E:And so often we see kind of this rigidity of, well, I've always taught this topic this way because we have to meet the curriculum standards, and we have to.
Speaker E:We can still meet standards and develop flexibility.
Speaker E:We can still develop choices.
Speaker E:So if you're struggling, for instance, to write, and a lot of times, if someone had a physical disability that was apparent and therefore stopping them from being able to physically write, we would find ways to work with them.
Speaker E:However, when people experience neurological barriers, right.
Speaker E:We don't always think so creatively.
Speaker E:We're not so quick to say, you know what, instead of writing your assignment, why don't I allow you to record a video?
Speaker E:Why don't I give you space to work with me one on one and figure out what's the best way for you to take the information that you do know and to show it to me?
Speaker E:And a lot of times when we start to do that, we'll do that for students and find, oh, my goodness, I should have did this for everyone.
Speaker E:It would have been so much easier if I had just made this the standard of operating for this assignment or for this classroom setting.
Speaker E:And we have to really, again, push back on the way that we have always done things and recognize that the way things have been built have always been with specific people in mind and therefore left out others.
Speaker B:So before, and I know that Grant is going to take the next question, I just wanted to add to one of the continuum descriptors that Grant just put before us.
Speaker B:I heard stop and pause.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Which means we have to make space for self reflection and a reciprocal communicative action.
Speaker B:And that process, which is what Kiara said, then we have to disrupt and interrogate.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Our own mental models.
Speaker B:Because that's the who am I coming together with the who are we?
Speaker B:Then we really have to think about what this dismantling is, Kiara.
Speaker B:And that's what you just discussed.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:We have to dismantle these mental models.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I always go back to powerful student care and transactional hurting.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:We are diverse.
Speaker B:As Mike Penchenot always says, diversity starts with the person right next to us.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Which is right there.
Speaker B:That is so key.
Speaker B:And that was pivotal to his own personal position in our conversation during that episode.
Speaker B:But then we have a choice.
Speaker B:Do we shift, which is what we need to do so we don't miss those opportunities, those wonderful, beautiful opportunities in the educational space.
Speaker B:So do we shift and change, or do we dismiss?
Speaker B:So I'm going to let you know that the way traditional schools are structured according to the status quo, it is dismissive and deficit in its structuring.
Speaker B:And I also, too, look forward to the down under conversation.
Speaker D:Can I throw one other step into that beautiful taxonomy that you just created?
Speaker D:The conversation, Alicia?
Speaker D:It would be that part of that disruption is collaborative problem solving.
Speaker E:Yes, yes.
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:And when I have had the privilege of working with so many outstanding educational colleagues who are serving neurally diverse and neurodivergent students and their families, when they stop and pause, I don't have to tell them they've done that several thousand times in the first week they met the child.
Speaker D:But then the conversation broadens and the joining of hands and the expanding of the circle of invested people, and that child is right at the center because, as you have said so beautifully, Chiara, that child knows so much so quickly about herself and has to be at the center of all the way forward.
Speaker D:When we broaden that conversation, when we allow our talented related services professionals, our speech and language therapists, our OTPT individuals in on the conversation, when we allow our consultant special ed teachers in on the conversation and the teaching assistants who support their incredible work, and those individuals then have time that school leaders create for them to speak specifically about the challenges, to create a hospitable conversation for the child, for the learner to join them.
Speaker D:The possibilities that explode from that work are amazing to behold.
Speaker D:And that's how we disrupt.
Speaker D:That's how we shift.
Speaker D:That's how we expand what learning can look like.
Speaker E:Yes.
Speaker E:And if we don't do it together, then we're also missing a very important opportunity.
Speaker A:So as we get ready to wrap up this part of the episode, we're going to get saltier and below deck in just a few minutes.
Speaker A:So you're going to want to join us over there for that conversation.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But innovation rooted in humanity is about looking at the individual needs of each and every student.
Speaker A:And that includes how they think, how they believe, how they behave, how they feel.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I want to leave you with Chiara's brilliant three words, stop and pause.
Speaker A:We'll see you next week in the wheelhouse.
Speaker A:Pause.
Speaker A:1, 2, 3, 4.
Speaker A:You ready for the after show?
Speaker A:Welcome to Below Deck.
Speaker A:Sorry, that's not right.
Speaker A:I got to do a commercial too.
Speaker A:I forgot to mention.
Speaker A:I forgot to mention that.
Speaker A:So we're going to go three, two, one.
Speaker A:I'm going to try to do this.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:If you'd like to hear more of this amazing conversation, then we have a second part or an after show called the Wheelhouse All Hands on Deck.
Speaker A:Only available at Lern Harbor.
Speaker A:So join us in the Wheelhouse below deck@learnharbor.thinkific.com and that's a wrap on season 11, episode four of the Wheelhouse.
Speaker A:A special thank you to today's amazing guest, Kiara Latimer, Director of the center for Neurodiversity and PATH at Rowan University, along with the Wheelhouse team of Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa, and Dr. Alicia Munro for helping us navigate this season's journey toward Future Ready Schools.
Speaker A:Innovation Rooted in Humanity if you're a like minded educator who believes the future of learning must stay human centered, we'd love for you to stay connected.
Speaker A:Follow Students Matter LLC on Instagram or LinkedIn or find any of us there.
Speaker A:Cathy mone, Michael Pipa, Dr. Alicia Munro, and me, Dr. Grant Chandler.
Speaker A:We're also thrilled to invite you to step inside the Wheelhouse Below Deck at Learn harbor, our new online space where these conversations come to life.
Speaker A:It's really more than a platform, it's a community.
Speaker A:A free curated safe harbor for educators, leaders and thinkers who want to reflect, connect and take action together.
Speaker A:Inside Below Deck you'll find our special segment the Wheelhouse.
Speaker A:All Hands on Deck.
Speaker A:Extended content from today's episode where purpose meets possibility and learning stays joyful, collaborative and deeply human.
Speaker A:Join us at learnharbor.thinkific.com and become part of this growing movement to build Future Ready schools where innovation is always rooted in humanity.
Speaker A:Until next time, keep your doors open and your hearts even wider.
