The Belief Gap: Understanding Our Impact on Student Success
Summary
The central theme of today's discourse revolves around the necessity of addressing the belief gap that significantly impacts educational equity, particularly for our black and brown students. In this engaging conversation, we are honored to host Dr. Dwayne Chism, a distinguished educator and advocate for systemic change in schools. Dr. Chism elucidates the detrimental effects of preconceived notions that educators may harbor, which can inadvertently hinder the academic growth of students who do not conform to conventional expectations. By fostering an environment of introspection and open dialogue, we can challenge and ultimately dismantle these biases, ensuring that every child is afforded the opportunity to thrive. Together, we reaffirm our commitment to creating inclusive educational spaces that recognize the unique potential of each student, thus paving the way for a more equitable future in education.
Additional Notes
A profound discourse unfolds in this episode as we engage with Dr. Dwayne. Chism, a distinguished practitioner and author of Leading Your School Toward Equity: A Practical Framework for Walking the Talk (ASCD 2022). The conversation delves into the pressing issue of the 'belief gap'—a concept that posits the disparities in expectations and support that black and brown students often encounter within educational landscapes. Dr. Chism eloquently articulates how systemic biases and preconceived notions regarding student capabilities can inadvertently hinder the growth and potential of these students. He underscores the necessity for educators to adopt a reflective stance, wherein they must interrogate their own belief systems and the implicit biases that influence their pedagogical practices. This dialogue is not merely theoretical; it is a call to action for educators to cultivate environments that empower every student, thereby transforming the narrative around educational equity.
The episode further explores the fundamental belief that each child's life is unique and invaluable. Dr. Chism shares insights from his book which serves as a practical guide for educators striving to implement equitable practices in their classrooms. The conversation emphasizes the importance of not just acknowledging the achievement gap but actively working to dismantle the barriers that perpetuate inequity. As we navigate the complexities of educational reform, the episode serves as a poignant reminder that the stakes are high; the outcomes of our actions have profound implications on students' futures.
In essence, this episode is a clarion call for educators to embrace their role as leaders in the quest for equity. Through candid conversations and critical reflections, we are invited to consider how our practices can either uplift or undermine the potential of our students. Dr. Chism’s insights serve as a guiding light, illuminating the path toward an inclusive educational environment where every student is afforded the opportunity to thrive. As we reflect on the discussions, we are reminded of the moral imperative that lies at the heart of education: to ensure that each child feels valued, seen, and capable of achieving their fullest potential.
Takeaways:
- In this episode, we discuss the belief gap that affects student achievement and equity.
- Dr. Chism emphasizes the importance of empowering educators to recognize their impact on students.
- We explore the necessity of courageous conversations about educational practices and beliefs.
- It is crucial that educators challenge their mental models to foster student growth and success.
- We must confront the reality that silence in educational settings perpetuates inequities and hinders progress.
Transcript
It's episode four of season ten and today's guest is Dr. Duane Chisholm.
Speaker A:A new episode of the Wheelhouse begins right now.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to give us a listen.
Speaker A:Season 10 features a team of four like minded friends and colleagues.
Speaker A:Kathy, Monique, Louis, Michael Pipa, Dr. Alicia Munro and yours truly.
Speaker A:We've opened the conversation this season to think about empowering educators to cultivate open doors and unlimited possibilities.
Speaker A:The Wheelhouse exists to create an inclusive community of empowered educators who believe that together we can disrupt the transactional herding nature of schooling to create districts, schools and classrooms where where each student feels confident, optimistic, capable, well supported and emboldened to be and to become who they are meant to be.
Speaker A:Episodes of the Wheelhouse will explore bodies of knowledge and expertise that align to this vision and these guiding principles.
Speaker A:Our team and guests are committed to this fundamental challenge to realize what we want for each student to experience in school.
Speaker A:Today's episode will focus on one of our guiding principles.
Speaker A:In particular, we believe that each human life is unique and precious.
Speaker A:As such, we are compelled to remove aspects of schooling that disregard any student's dignity.
Speaker A: n at Peru State College and a: Speaker A: In: Speaker A: ASCD and is the author of the: Speaker A:In in Today's episode with Dr. Chisholm, we'll explore the belief gap and the importance of honestly guiding, coaching and supporting our educators so our schools and classrooms can embody what it really means to value the lives of each of our children.
Speaker A:And keep in mind at the end of the day that what we do for some children is even bigger than cultivating hope or killing dreams.
Speaker A:It's a matter of life and death.
Speaker A:This was a great conversation.
Speaker A:There were so many intriguing ideas that were brought to the space.
Speaker A:Listen to the entire episode to hear the details.
Speaker A:Together.
Speaker A:Let's open doors and unlimited possibilities for each and every student.
Speaker A:And now, episode four had a great conversation with our special guest, Dr. Duane Chisholm and our Wheelhouse team, Kathy mone, Michael Pipa, Dr. Alicia Monroe, and me.
Speaker A:You're not going to want to miss it.
Speaker A:Take a listen.
Speaker A:Good morning.
Speaker A:And once again, I want to welcome you to the Wheelhouse.
Speaker A:I'm Grant Chandler with my amazing friends and colleagues Kathy Mone and Alicia Munro.
Speaker A:Good morning.
Speaker B:Good morning.
Speaker B:Good to see you.
Speaker A:Good to see you.
Speaker A:Michael Pipa is unable to join us this morning, so he's going to play Kathy and he's going to listen to this episode and then add some comments.
Speaker A:So when the episode airs, we'll be able to hear from everyone from the Wheelhouse team.
Speaker A:I am super excited.
Speaker A:I say that every week.
Speaker A:And I mean it every week.
Speaker A:I totally mean it every week.
Speaker A:But I'm really geeked this morning to to be able to welcome Dr. Duane Chisholm to the Wheelhouse.
Speaker A:He is an amazing scholar, a great practitioner, an amazing human spirit, and he thinks just like we do.
Speaker A:So it's just really cool to welcome Duane to the Wheelhouse.
Speaker A:My friend.
Speaker A:Sir, welcome.
Speaker C:Hey.
Speaker C:Hey.
Speaker C:It's a pleasure to be in the space.
Speaker C:Thank you for having me.
Speaker A:We're thrilled to have you and we're thrilled to have this conversation with you.
Speaker A:I had the pleasure, pleasure of listening to you make a presentation at the ascd isd co. Whatever that thing was called, the CO Located Conference.
Speaker A:We got to see you there and you were talking about so many great ideas.
Speaker A:But let's just first talk about your book, right?
Speaker A:You wrote this fantastic book about equity and walking the talk.
Speaker A:What do you hope to accomplish with that book, Ariel, for the big picture.
Speaker C:You know, big picture.
Speaker C:The reason why I wrote the book is honestly because I have two black boys at home.
Speaker C:And I remember being a teacher and all the conversations about the achievement gap and just thinking about how school systems need to change if we're gonna make sure that we do deliver the promise, right.
Speaker C:Of making sure that each kid learns and gets what they need.
Speaker C:So really just started thinking about how do I present something in a practical way that people can see themselves actually doing the work?
Speaker C:Because I think sometimes when people get caught up in the theory of it all, they lose hope that they could actually accomplish what certain things are asking them to do.
Speaker C:So I really set out to write something that was practical that people could actually say, hey, I can see myself doing this and making this happen within my environment.
Speaker A:And I love that because there's such a difference between the theoretical ideas that underpin a lot of great work and then how do put that work out there into practice every day in a way that isn't going to take me 27 hours of prep.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So how do I do all of that?
Speaker A:So one of the things that you talk about in your book, and you mentioned it in the presentation, I mean, it was all centered around that, is this concept called the belief gap.
Speaker A:Could you speak to that?
Speaker A:What do you mean by the belief gap?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So, you know, oftentimes when we think about black and Brown students, people sometimes go through the checklist.
Speaker C:You know, they talk about some of the things like poverty, single parent homes, lack of resources as the reason why the gap exists.
Speaker C:But actually when you look at the research, when all things are considered equal, there is still a gap.
Speaker C:So that tells me that there has to be something more as to why our students are equal.
Speaker C:Lagging behind in a lot of ways.
Speaker C:And it's because this notion of our belief, our belief systems actually create different ways that we respond and react to particular groups of students.
Speaker C:So oftentimes, when you think about lesson planning, how we approach behavior, how we go after all these different things are impacted by the perceived conditions that we think students go through.
Speaker C:So the way that I talk about it is oftentimes our black and Brown students experience the lower side of adult efficacy.
Speaker C:And it's not even always from a negative place.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like sometimes, you know, it's that Superman syndrome.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Or so sometimes people are coming from an authentic place of wanting to do more and be better for students, but in actuality, they're actually hindering their growth and learning.
Speaker C:So it's not always that people are trying to be negative.
Speaker C:Sometimes they're coming from a sincere place, but it's just not getting what we need to have get done.
Speaker B:And you went a bit further in your recent article with ASCD ISD in regards to grading and those beliefs that often underpin how we approach our students.
Speaker B:You want to talk a little bit about that?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So just looking at the grading systems and we talk about like, you know, cultural responsiveness and looking at the grading, and I think sometimes what we have to understand is that part of being culturally responsive is to actually step outside of yourself.
Speaker C:And so even when you're looking at grading and we're, and we're grading students and things like that, we also have to pay attention to their cultural context when we're looking at the responses and the things that they're giving.
Speaker C:So part of the article is actually talking about even though we're creating assessments that we say are more responsive to kids needs, the only way to actually know that is to sit back and actually kind of put yourself in the seat.
Speaker C:Of the student to be able to get to understand.
Speaker C:Did it deliver what it was supposed to deliver?
Speaker C:Did I get the results that I was supposed to get?
Speaker C:So how do we actually sit back and become more analytic around the types of things that we're grading and that we're putting out there for our students?
Speaker D:Dwayne, you know, you and I are brothers and sisters in this equity work, and we have these deep conversations as we do in this wheelhouse space and as I do with each one of you, Grant, Kathy and Mike around mental models, and what are we bringing into the space?
Speaker D:And how do we have enough courage to challenge our mental models, to see the individuals that are sitting in the seats to really challenge some of those core.
Speaker D:Those core energies and thoughts around why the classrooms and the disconnects and the deficits actually do exist?
Speaker C:Yeah, so I totally agree about checking those mental models.
Speaker C:And I think part of, you know, it's interesting that we've kind of shifted a little bit to this notion of this teaching about belonging to.
Speaker C:And I'm fearful that as we talk about belonging, we're losing the root of the conversation.
Speaker C:Like, I think a belonging is important, but I even think about my own experience, right where part of my anxieties that I developed as a young black boy was due to teachers unknowingly doing things that they didn't realize impacted me as a black male sitting in the classroom.
Speaker C:And I tell the story of even, like the, you know, the math facts around the world game where students stand up, you know, and were put on display in front of the whole class.
Speaker C:And I remember as a black male, thinking about the things that kids, other kids were being praised for.
Speaker C:But also when you're thinking about some of the things that teachers bring to the table that they don't even know, that they haven't even contended with in regards to their belief models has to happen.
Speaker C:But I think one of the things we have to begin to do is we have to find the courage to say the thing.
Speaker C:So often in our education spaces, we're all about protecting adult morale, despite what it does to kids and despite how it impacts their future.
Speaker C:And so we've got to find more courage in our systems to say the thing that needs to be said, but we have to say it with authentic care.
Speaker C:You know, my dad used to tell me, I love you too much to allow you to stay that way.
Speaker C:We have to feel the same way about our teachers and about our educators.
Speaker C:That my version of care for you is to actually wanna see you get Better and to give you information that helps you improve because too often we withhold that information because we don't want people to burn out or we don't want people to tap out, so to speak.
Speaker C:We have to get past that and understand that the only way that we're gonna get there and deliver that promise for those kids is we have to become real in our conversations and how we provide coaching and feedback.
Speaker A:That's a.
Speaker A:A major shift.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because we have, especially, especially since COVID we have been super focused on adult needs.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Be.
Speaker A:We've been so fearful of, you know, the, the mass exodus and, you know, wanting.
Speaker A:Not wanting to put too much pressure on adults.
Speaker A:And I remember sitting in a conversation and they were, you know, and we were.
Speaker A:They were.
Speaker A:I wasn't.
Speaker A:They were lamenting, you know, how difficult it is to be a teacher during COVID you know, because of all these things that were.
Speaker A:That were expected of them.
Speaker A:And then I went, wait.
Speaker A:Well, wait a minute.
Speaker A:In this particular community, teachers are the highest paid salary in the community, and nobody has lost their jobs.
Speaker A:Did we ever think about what, what about the grocery store clerk or the.
Speaker A:Or the bank teller or the.
Speaker A:Or the nail technician who just lost her job because, you know, whatever.
Speaker A: nd adults has continued since: Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And what, and what you're saying.
Speaker A:And we're not saying rip adults to shreds, but you're saying we've got to really.
Speaker A:We've got to really be honest and courageous as adults if we're going to impact positively the lives of students.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker C:And what gets people to.
Speaker C:When we talk about retention and getting people to stay in the profession, the thing that gets them to leave the quickest is lack of leadership.
Speaker C:That's what gets people to leave.
Speaker C:Think about it.
Speaker C:People stay because of people.
Speaker C:So it's crazy because the one thing that we're trying to protect is actually exasperating the problem.
Speaker C:So when we actually show leadership, you actually get people to stay.
Speaker C:When you have those conversations, but you're coming from a place of not to get you.
Speaker C:But to say, we're actually going to create an environment and a culture where our kids thrive, but I'm going to provide high levels of support that gets people to want to stay.
Speaker C:So we have to stop coming with these same ideologies and viewpoints of doing the same old thing gets us better results.
Speaker C:It doesn't happen.
Speaker C:Never does it happen.
Speaker C:So we've got to sit back and say, how do we develop strong leaders who are going to speak power to truth, Right?
Speaker C:And so who's going to be willing to have those conversations, but do it in a way that allows people to actually respond and grow and do better for our kids?
Speaker D:I'd like to further extend that right.
Speaker D:Is how do we define leadership in our school spaces now?
Speaker D:And it's interesting because teachers don't see themselves as leaders, right?
Speaker D:So it's, how are we positioning ourselves?
Speaker D:What are our own personal positionalities around leaders and leadership and those practices and those competencies?
Speaker D:Do we all have a common language in that educational system or what a leader is not necessarily by title and function, but by role.
Speaker D:It would be great if we could unpack that a little bit, because if we're going to get effective leaders, what are those exemplars of best practices that we all have to be courageous to own and walk out?
Speaker C:I so love that you unpacked that that way.
Speaker C:And I was thinking about my book, and one of the first places when you're talking about creating a common language is I was actually starting around, like our mission statements and our value statements, right?
Speaker C:Like everybody has them, but yet when you walk cultures and you walk environments, rarely do you actually see it living out.
Speaker C:So part of the leadership piece is I even talk about how do we unpack that, but look at it from everybody's role and perspective.
Speaker C:So even when we talk about high expectations, what does that look like to everybody?
Speaker C:What does it look like from the leadership perspective?
Speaker C:What does it look like from the role of a teacher sitting in the classroom, different people.
Speaker C:When people don't understand things in the environment, they make things up.
Speaker C:They go after things in their own way.
Speaker C:So I think, to your point of what does leadership look like?
Speaker C:One of the things that I think we have to really get people good at is deep reflective practice, because we don't oftentimes sit back and take a look at our impact.
Speaker C:So thinking about a teacher who.
Speaker C:Because I think there's.
Speaker C:It's hard for people to completely be aware, right, of who they are in every given moment.
Speaker C:But what you can do is you can look at what it does to a kid and sit back and go, man, there was something off in that moment.
Speaker C:What is it about me?
Speaker C:What is it about this situation that created this condition?
Speaker C:So I think one of the things that we can do, that's a mistake about this equity thing, Sometimes we make it a game of perfection, and it's not perfection, right?
Speaker C:There's no way to come at this thing from a perfect landscape.
Speaker C:But when you're thinking about leaders, and you're thinking about how we develop, getting teachers to view themselves as leaders.
Speaker C:Part of it is you've got to be reflective.
Speaker C:You've got to take a look at the things that you do, look at how you show up and look at how it impacts kids and their experience.
Speaker C:Look at how are they responding to you when you're interacting with them in that classroom.
Speaker C:Is it authentic?
Speaker C:Are they engaged?
Speaker C:Part of that leadership is taking a.
Speaker A:Look at yourself, which is often the hardest thing that we ask educators to do, which is to look in the mirror and really think about what they do and its impact on students in their classrooms, for sure.
Speaker B:And then being prepared to support what they surface.
Speaker B:So as leaders, and we talked about this last week and those layers of leadership, which is exactly what you were talking about, Duane and Alicia, that everybody within a district is a leader in a different way.
Speaker B:And so what does that look like?
Speaker B:To be able to support whatever is being surfaced and not being perfect with that and understanding that we are going to fall short, but how are we reflecting and growing and ensuring that we're not falling short in the same way over and over again because our kids deserve better?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I like to look at it is how are teachers and how are adults evolving for kids?
Speaker C:Because sometimes we expect kids to come into our environments, into our systems, and assimilate, and that's not what we're looking for.
Speaker C:We're not trying to fix kids.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:We're trying to make sure that environments actually meet up, meet kids where they are, and help kids thrive.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But sometimes we get kids in our environment, and the first thing we're trying to do is correct who they are, correct their behavior, instead of trying to get to know who they are and actually meeting kids where they are to move things forward.
Speaker C:So I think part of it is, though, things don't get better without conversations, without having conversations, without talking about some of the realities.
Speaker C:And I often quote the Jim Collins Good to great where he says, things don't improve unless brutal facts are confronted.
Speaker C:So what that tells you is we can't get better if we don't talk about our condition, if we don't have an honest reality and an honest picture of.
Speaker C:Of our current state, there's no way for us to make anything better for our kids.
Speaker C:So we have to make sure that as we're developing our leaders, we're developing our teachers, we're creating a norm around talking about our current realities.
Speaker C:Like, if I'm struggling, I'm vulnerable enough to admit that I'm struggling and where I'm struggling.
Speaker C:And the last thing I will say that I often think about is when we're thinking about, we started off with like the belief gap and all this is that oftentimes the ones that are, that are impacting our kids in a certain way are the ones that are well meaning.
Speaker C:They're the ones that, that, that, that are thinking that they're doing the well meaning thing, but it ends up impacting kids in a way that's not beneficial, you know.
Speaker C:And so, and I tell a story in the book of a student, Jalen, who was a 6th grader who scores in the 11th grade math level.
Speaker C:Right at the 11th grade, the teacher recommends him for the gifted program.
Speaker C:She was a white teacher, he's a black student, and when he goes into seventh grade, something happens and she decides not to recommend him for the highest math program.
Speaker C:She decided, even though he scored in the 11th grade level.
Speaker C:And this is what she says to the parents, that she did not recommend him because she didn't think he would want to, quote, live for math.
Speaker C:She didn't think he would want to live for math.
Speaker C:And she says that it's going to take two hours of doing homework.
Speaker C:And she thought that he would have other things like sports and other activities he would want to be engaged in.
Speaker C:But here's the kicker, you all is that this is a teacher that is requested every year, highly recommended by families and parents.
Speaker C:What I'm saying is people don't know what they don't know.
Speaker C:And unless somebody's willing to have a conversation with this teacher, guess what happens with this practice every single year.
Speaker C:It continues.
Speaker C:And what the teacher doesn't recognize is she's actually perpetuating the problem of the achievement gap or black males missing from math classrooms.
Speaker C:So what I'm advocating for is silence breeds inequity.
Speaker C:If we continue to remain silent, we will not close any gaps.
Speaker C:If we're not willing to have the tough conversations, this boy or this student, this black male, gets on a path that's so commonly placed for so many of our black students, and nobody intervenes.
Speaker C:So we've got to be willing to have the conversations that nobody else is willing to have.
Speaker C:If we're truly about kids, each kid, not all kids.
Speaker D:So in past sessions we've had conversations around privilege and power and control.
Speaker D:And in the situation with Jaylen and his teacher, the teacher took away his choice.
Speaker C:That's right.
Speaker D:And that in her mental model, he wanted other options.
Speaker D:But without the conversation and the ask, she made a real poor choice that changes his educational trajectory.
Speaker D:So we, you know, it's.
Speaker D:And she has the power and the privilege to do that, not because of her whiteness, but because she's the teacher in that classroom.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:So I want us to think as educators, are we having those critical conversations?
Speaker D:Are we co creating the educational space with our students or are we making decisions that could really be detrimental to their educational outcomes?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And we're oftentimes what I call playing gatekeeper.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:To who gets access and who doesn't.
Speaker C:And the harsh reality is, to your point, that split second decision creates a life condition.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:That could take years and sometimes we often never reverse.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And so we have to understand that it's a critical decision.
Speaker C:And you're right.
Speaker C:We have to sit and understand sometimes our own privilege, our own, and how it's impacting how we're viewing or how we assume everyone else lives their life.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Or what they desire and actually put it out there and provide the choice and the ability to make their own decisions.
Speaker D:Those are the mental models, those are the mental models that we have to really sit down with in self reflection.
Speaker D:Dr. C. And sit with those and see what we carrying in.
Speaker C:That's right.
Speaker C:I like that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But our educators, leaders and teachers alike have to be brave enough to enter into this work.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We have to get beyond.
Speaker A:You know, I'm not a fan of evaluation.
Speaker A:In fact, I'm very critical of evaluation.
Speaker A:We have to get beyond ratings and all of this ridiculousness that has done nothing to support what we're talking about today.
Speaker A:And we've got to get people ready to be self reflective and to be and to engage in these critical, this critical work and these critical conversations.
Speaker A:If we're going to move forward, we have to stop placating adults, have to stop placating adults and be willing to have these conversations or as we have said this just the cycle will continue.
Speaker C:I really like that.
Speaker C:And you made me think of a quote that a mentor once said to me is he said when we don't tell adults the truth, we lie to children.
Speaker C:And he said anytime we're not willing to tell an adult something that they need to hear or to help them get better.
Speaker C:We lie to kids when we tell them that their future matters.
Speaker C:We lie to kids when we tell them that we are here for them.
Speaker C:And so we have to understand that we have to be willing to have that talk, have that conversation in order to make better the situations and the conditions for our kids.
Speaker A:Every single Day the conversations have to move beyond questions of engagement in classrooms.
Speaker A:And I walked into your classroom and I saw a kid who wasn't looking at you right.
Speaker A:To something that really matters, to things that really matter.
Speaker A:And that requires that leaders.
Speaker A:And here I'm talking about principal leaders and these leaders who are in classrooms enough.
Speaker A:Who understand what's happening in the relationships between students and teachers on a daily basis and who are empowered and courageous enough to have these conversations and to guide folks in these critical reflections.
Speaker D:So if in my classroom I want to be courageous, but the top of the pyramid is oppressive, that I'm going to resort back into my safe space, which is the classroom.
Speaker D:So it has to be a trickle up and a trickle down, or else there's a major break in the system.
Speaker D:Because I can't have fear, because I want to be courageous.
Speaker D:Because then I'm sitting in a space and somebody's eyeballing me, all right?
Speaker D:And I'm shaking because I don't know what the outcome of my contract or my observation is going to be because I stepped up and I was courageous.
Speaker D:That's that common talk.
Speaker D:That's why we have to, like Dwayne said, what's the norm?
Speaker D:The norm has to flow through the system.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:What's the norm for this?
Speaker D:So we all understand that we're safe.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:And that we could trust the space where courage can exist.
Speaker B:Having the courage to challenge the system because it's spot on.
Speaker B:You know, we can continue to do things in isolation.
Speaker B:Isolation.
Speaker B:And we're not going to get anywhere.
Speaker B:Our educational system is just going to continue to live the same cycles over and over again and more and more students are going to lose out.
Speaker B:So if we have the courage to challenge our systems, that's every level.
Speaker B:Because our principals have to be supported central by central office.
Speaker B:Central office has to be supported.
Speaker B:What does that look like?
Speaker B:To ensure that every layer of the system is working towards the same common goals.
Speaker B:Those beliefs, the language, all of those things.
Speaker B:And if I'm going to step out, just like you said, Alicia, and have that courage, I have to know that somebody else is right there with me.
Speaker B:Challenging that courage or having the courage to challenge as well.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I think you definitely have to create a permission structure that allows people to understand.
Speaker C:But I think, you know, this notion of building coherence.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Everybody has to be clear on what the mission is.
Speaker C:And you know, and honestly too, it's like, how about just do what we say?
Speaker C:Like, like I said, it's written in our.
Speaker C:It's Written in our statements.
Speaker C:You all, like, it's educated.
Speaker C:How about we just do what we say?
Speaker C:Like, if we did that, it would all be solved.
Speaker C:I mean, I don't.
Speaker C:And that's why, like, my book, why I call it a practical.
Speaker C:It's like I want to strip this thing down, right?
Speaker C:Because sometimes I think it is complicated nuance, but I also think we complicate it, right?
Speaker C:How about we all take a look at humanity, right?
Speaker C:Like, how about we all really do what we say we're going to do and things will be fine.
Speaker C:But the problem is adults start adulting.
Speaker C:We start.
Speaker C:We start thinking about things from our own lens and our own perspective.
Speaker C:And we're wanting to fix kids, fix conditions and do all these different types of things.
Speaker C:But what we're missing is our own introspection and our own how we show up in a space that impacts the experience of our kids, but also how we help systems at the top begin to understand what true support actually looks like.
Speaker C:And it's not to evaluate people out or to sit there and look at people in that particular context.
Speaker A:So it goes back to the, you know, to me, it's the fundamental purpose of what schooling is all about, right?
Speaker A:Is it about.
Speaker A:Is it this transactional relationship?
Speaker A:Is it just about proficiency at the end of the year?
Speaker A:Is it just about college and career readiness?
Speaker A:Or is this really a place?
Speaker A:Is this really an institution that is designed.
Speaker A:Interested in growing human beings into their.
Speaker A:Into their strongest potential?
Speaker D:And.
Speaker A:And I think we haven't grappled with what we're really all about and what we really want to bring to the table.
Speaker A:And I think you lift it really well.
Speaker A:We write these lofty things that we want to slap on our websites because it just looks really, really good.
Speaker A:And yet in most cases, we don't have any intention of ever living into that because we're going to perpetuate what we already know to be able to do and to create these conditions means we've got to tear apart what's there.
Speaker A:It's bigger than just putting a vision on a website, right?
Speaker A:Living into it means something entirely different.
Speaker C:I want people to understand the power that they possess.
Speaker C:I think sometimes when teachers or people in systems, they think, but I'm just one person or I'm not so and so, or I'm not this and I don't have this role or that.
Speaker C:You know, everybody has to start with their own local and immediate right?
Speaker C:Like you have more power than you think you do.
Speaker C:And so we have to get in this space where we don't limit our abilities to make change for our kids.
Speaker C:So one of the things that I think we have to really begin to understand is that it has to start with one.
Speaker C:And we've got to continue to build on this mindset, this belief that our kids do deserve better, because the data has told us what the data has told us for years, and we can't dispute that.
Speaker C:So we have to begin to look at our systems, look at what we're doing, and approach things differently, on down to how we support our teachers, how we allow teachers to be vulnerable, right about what their challenges and weaknesses are, and not hold it against them.
Speaker C:How do we actually build people to be better for our kids?
Speaker C:But we have to start with our own individual power and begin to understand we have a responsibility, a moral imperative to do right by our kids.
Speaker C:That's what we signed up for when we became educators, right?
Speaker C:It's a moral imperative.
Speaker C:There's not an opt out button here.
Speaker C:We have to understand that we are committed to this work, despite what people want to say about DEI and all these different types of things.
Speaker C:You could take out the term, but it doesn't change the mission and change the work.
Speaker C:So at the end of the day, you know, we could argue about saying this and saying that, but you still have to accomplish the mission of making sure each kid that shows up in our environment and our cultures has an ability to thrive.
Speaker C:And so we cannot be blockers of children's future.
Speaker C:We have to stop that, stop blocking their potential because of what we think they're going to be, our projections.
Speaker C:And I think about how many times as a teacher where I had kids that came back, that I was just blown away by things that they were doing.
Speaker C:And so many people, kids that would tell me about teachers who maybe doubted them or had a comment about what they were going to be and what they were going to do in the future.
Speaker C:We have to stop playing predictors of children's future and understand that the part that we play is to be builders.
Speaker C:We're to build, and that starts with our individual power.
Speaker C:And our main objective is to do no harm to kids.
Speaker C:Probably a long way to answer your question, but I'm sorry, I just, I, I get on this, I get on this soapbox.
Speaker C:If I can just real quick just tell you one of the things that I think when I talked about my kids, I realized that I'm privileged and blessed to live the life that I live.
Speaker C:And there's a lot of people out there who don't know how to advocate in the same way that my wife and I do.
Speaker C:Part of it was I started about my kids, but I recognize that everybody's kid is my kid when I'm an educator.
Speaker C:So part of my responsibility is to make sure that not just my kids, but every kid that looks like my kid, doesn't look like my kid gets what they deserve.
Speaker C:In our systems, and for so many years, we've fallen short.
Speaker C:And so I'm waiting for the day where we have that pillar of excellence, right?
Speaker C:That school system or that building that's doing the work, having the conversations, doing what they're supposed to do, that we can actually find an appropriate model because we don't have it.
Speaker C:And if we were all doctors, we would be in trouble for producing the same results that we produce year after year for decades.
Speaker C:Think about this.
Speaker C:We wouldn't all go to the same doctor.
Speaker C:The doctor said, well, here's the data.
Speaker C:And the data has been the same since 19.
Speaker C:We wouldn't do it.
Speaker C:But yet we have our kids walk through our doors and through our thresholds, and we're presenting the same predictable data based upon skin tone.
Speaker C:Crazy.
Speaker C:And there's always outliers, but based upon the color of a kid's skin, you could project where they fall academically across the country.
Speaker C:And that presents a problem that we must fix and we are obligated to fix.
Speaker C:So I just want our systems to deliver on the promise to be better.
Speaker A:And do better today, today, not in 20 years.
Speaker A:Let's do it today.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Let's do it today.
Speaker A:I want to say thank you very much, Duane, Dr. Duane Chisholm for joining us today in the wheelhouse.
Speaker A:Michael Piper.
Speaker A:Welcome to the wheelhouse.
Speaker A:How you doing?
Speaker E:I'm doing great.
Speaker A:So, you know, we have a new format when someone needs to be to step away.
Speaker A:So I'm sorry you missed the conversation with Dr. Chisum the other day, but this will be really interesting to get your take and as you get to listen to it uninterrupted.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And even the unedited version first.
Speaker A:Is he not amazing?
Speaker E:He's wonderful.
Speaker E:And it was interrupted because I found myself having to press pause on the sound file because I just needed to stop the conversation for a second and let things land a bit.
Speaker E:And then write down, write down.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:I was taking copious notes through the whole thing, but, you know, it was a back and forth because there were so many rich moments and insights that were happening.
Speaker E:You know, the third thing I wrote down is father of two boys.
Speaker E:And whenever somebody speaks from the chair of being a Parent, I'm just.
Speaker E:It opens me right up, you know, I.
Speaker E:You and I share that.
Speaker E:And, and so, you know, they're speaking as an expert person possessed of decades of experience.
Speaker E:But, you know, when you start speaking from the chair of being a parent, there's a level of reality there and human connection that adds such depth.
Speaker E:There is something beyond just the socioeconomic disparities that causes disparity in achievement.
Speaker E:And then he leaned into that.
Speaker E:And that's where, you know, the next statement that hit me was our black and brown students experience the lower end of teacher efficacy regularly year after year after year after year.
Speaker E:And it's not because our white educators don't care.
Speaker E:It's just that they aren't possessed of the awareness and the skillfulness and the belief in their own capacity to address it in the moment and make a difference.
Speaker E:And, you know, it just felt like in a pivot there we were, we were just.
Speaker C:He.
Speaker E:He was able to take us.
Speaker E:Here's the friction point, you know, right there.
Speaker E:And I love that.
Speaker A:And it focuses the need for us to really, really think about our own mental models and our own, you know, interrogating those implicit and explicit biases to really think about how we are.
Speaker A:What are we doing to eliminate the belief gap?
Speaker A:What do we, you know, sometimes our actions are small, sometimes our actions are great.
Speaker A:How do we, how do we make sure that we, you know, when we say each and we and we talk about infinite potential, that we really mean that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:For each.
Speaker A:For each and every student.
Speaker E:You know, I think at some point in the conversation, I forget who it was, who said it.
Speaker E:You know, for so many of our white educators, we don't know what we don't know.
Speaker E:And the steps that we end up, the decisions we end up acting on and taking.
Speaker E:Conversation.
Speaker E:Where's Jalen's family in the conversation?
Speaker E:Where.
Speaker E:Where is all of that?
Speaker A:And I wonder, you know, as he was talking, he calls it the belief gap.
Speaker A:And I certainly would agree, but it's also, is.
Speaker A:It is also a knowledge gap.
Speaker E:Knowledge gap.
Speaker A:It's right.
Speaker A:It's an extent gap.
Speaker E:I mean, there are gaps surfacing your mental models.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:I mean.
Speaker A:Why anybody would, would.
Speaker A:Would make that kind of assumption about.
Speaker A:I mean, if we would not, we would not make that kind of assumption about a sixth grade white boy.
Speaker A:We would not, right?
Speaker A:We absolutely would not.
Speaker A:That thought that that assumption would never come into play.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:Never ever, ever.
Speaker A:And that's a wrap of Season 10, Episode 4 of the Wheelhouse.
Speaker A:A special thank you to my guest Dr. Duane Chisholm and the Wheelhouse team, Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa and Dr. Alicia Munro.
Speaker A:We're back in the studio next week and we can't wait to continue the conversation with you.
Speaker A: ecial guest, Rich Anyabene, a: Speaker A:We'll be talking all things humanizing student voice, self efficacy and agency.
Speaker A:You won't want to miss hearing from this outstanding award winning educator.
Speaker A:We hope you'll join the Wheelhouse Company.
Speaker A:Are you a like minded educator who's committed to open doors and unlimited possibilities for each student?
Speaker A:Follow Students Matter LLC on Instagram or LinkedIn or follow any or all four of us who are also on LinkedIn.
Speaker A:Subscribe to the Wheelhouse Chronicle on Substack.
Speaker A:Michael's waiting to hear your comments and we're all excited to continue this conversation with you.
Speaker A:That's the Wheelhouse Substack and join the curated community, the Wheelhouse Forum, only available at Students Matter's very own Learn Harbor.
Speaker A:That's learnharbor.thinkific.com the Wheelhouse is a production of Students Matter LLC.
Speaker A:Our show's theme music, Off We Go was written and performed by Cody Martin and obtained through soundstripe.com stop by our website and check out what we offer at www.
Speaker A:Our Students Matter.
Speaker C:Together.
Speaker A:Our goal is simply to prove to each student and to each teacher that they are both distinctive and irreplaceable.
Speaker A:Until next time.
Speaker A:Remember, we got this.
