The Role of Allyship in Education: Insights from Jim Van Nada
This podcast episode features an insightful dialogue with Jim Van Nada, who returns to the Wheelhouse to explore educational issues through the lens of equity. Our discussion commences with the imperative of examining how our decisions impact students, particularly in terms of privilege and systemic barriers. Van Nada emphasizes the distinction between being an ally as a mere identity versus actively engaging in allyship as a verb, highlighting the necessity of genuine actions over superficial declarations. Throughout the conversation, we delve into the profound questions surrounding decision-making that affects diverse student populations, encouraging educators to reflect on the broader implications of their choices. As we strive to cultivate hope rather than extinguish dreams, we invite our listeners to engage deeply with these transformative ideas.
A profound exploration of equity in education unfolds as Jim Van Nada returns to the Wheelhouse, engaging in a rich dialogue that challenges the status quo within our educational frameworks. The discourse embarks with a critical examination of how educators can approach school-related issues through an equity lens, prompting us to consider not only the decisions made but their broader implications on diverse student populations. Vaneda, a seasoned higher education professional, articulates the necessity of understanding the nuanced needs of each student, emphasizing that decisions should be informed by the lived experiences of those impacted. This conversation delves into the intricate balance between administrative decisions and their potential ramifications, urging educators to refine their approaches to cultivate hope rather than inadvertently stifle dreams.
The discussion transitions into a compelling differentiation between being an ally as a mere identity versus embodying allyship as a dynamic verb. Van Nada elucidates the importance of active engagement and vulnerability in fostering genuine connections with students and communities. The dialogue invites us to reflect on our own biases and the inherent challenges of navigating institutional frameworks that may impede our ability to act justly. As the conversation progresses, the panelists confront the uncomfortable realities of privilege and the importance of dismantling barriers that obstruct equitable access to education. This episode serves as a clarion call to educators: to reflect critically on their practices and to strive for an inclusive environment that nurtures every student's potential.
In the concluding segments, the discourse emphasizes the imperative of self-reflection and accountability in educational settings. Van Nada and the panel explore poignant questions surrounding the impact of decisions on individual students and the systemic issues that often remain invisible. The narrative crescendos with a compelling reminder that inaction equates to complicity, potentially perpetuating inequities and undermining the educational aspirations of marginalized students. The episode encapsulates a vital message: as educators, we must endeavor to cultivate hope, ensuring that our actions align with our professed values and commitments to equity. This episode not only illuminates the complexities of allyship but also challenges us to confront our own roles within the educational ecosystem, inspiring a collective journey towards transformative change.
Takeaways:
- The conversation emphasizes the importance of viewing educational issues through an equity lens, which enables a more nuanced understanding of student needs.
- Jim Van Nada elucidates the distinction between being an ally as a noun versus an ally as a verb, highlighting the importance of action over mere identity.
- The panel discusses the critical role of vulnerability in fostering trust within educational environments and the necessity of listening to diverse voices.
- Throughout the episode, the hosts reflect on the profound impact that daily decisions have on students, emphasizing the need for intentionality in educational practices.
- The episode underscores the significance of building relationships and fostering genuine engagement to create inclusive educational spaces.
- Finally, the discussion concludes with a call to action, urging educators to consider whether their actions cultivate hope or inadvertently stifle dreams.
Links referenced in this episode:
Transcript
Jim Vaneda returns to the Wheelhouse in a fascinating conversation starting from what it looks like to look at issues in our schools through an equity lens.
Speaker A:A new episode of the Wheelhouse begins right now.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to give us a listen.
Speaker A:Season nine features a panel of four like minded friends and colleagues.
Speaker A:Cathy Mone, Michael Pipa, Dr.
Speaker A:Alicia Munro, and yours truly.
Speaker A:We've opened the conversation this season to think about empowering educators to cultivate hope.
Speaker A:In this ninth episode, we welcome to return to the Wheelhouse Jim Vaneda, a higher education professional and currently a coordinator of student services in a local district.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:We started the conversation thinking about how we could look at issues in education around an equity lens.
Speaker A:And the conversation moved from there to what is ally?
Speaker A:And what is the difference between being an ally as a noun and looking at ally as a verb?
Speaker A:You know, it was a great conversation and there were so many intriguing ideas that we brought to the space.
Speaker A:I hope you'll listen to the entire episode to hear the details together.
Speaker A:Let's cultivate hope for each and every student.
Speaker A:And now, episode nine and a great conversation with our friend Jim Veneta.
Speaker A:You're not going to want to miss this.
Speaker A:Take a listen.
Speaker A:Good morning and welcome to the Wheelhouse.
Speaker A:I'm Grant Chandler and as I say every week, I am super excited to be in this space to have these conversations with such genius, brilliant people whose hearts are all in the right place.
Speaker A:So as we get started, let me welcome first the people who join me every week in the Wheelhouse.
Speaker A:Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa, and Alicia Monroe.
Speaker A:Good morning.
Speaker B:Good morning.
Speaker C:Good morning.
Speaker A:That was almost there.
Speaker A:Jim.
Speaker A:This is kind of.
Speaker A:Sometimes it seems like a choir when they do it, and I'm here with a baton.
Speaker A:Not so much this morning.
Speaker B:That's okay.
Speaker B:That's okay.
Speaker B:We are.
Speaker B:We are still in unison.
Speaker A:Hey.
Speaker A:Good morning, everyone.
Speaker B:Good morning.
Speaker D:Good morning.
Speaker A:Everybody is well?
Speaker B:So good.
Speaker D:Yes.
Speaker B:You know, I say this every time.
Speaker B:This is my favorite day of the week, even more than weekends.
Speaker B:Can you believe that?
Speaker E:Wow.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:More than weekends.
Speaker B:I truly love the opportunity to be in a space with just incredible human beings and to be able to.
Speaker B:To connect with.
Speaker B:With those of you that I wouldn't normally have the opportunity to connect and then to bring guests in each week, like we're going to introduce here in a second.
Speaker B:It just is a.
Speaker B:It's a highlight.
Speaker B:It kind of sets the tone for, for, for everything.
Speaker B:So thank you.
Speaker D:Well said.
Speaker A:How do you top that?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:How do you top say anything to that, except to SM is not readable in a podcast.
Speaker A:So if you're listening, you've got people cheesy grins from ear to ear.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:As they're listening to that.
Speaker A:Well, let's bring in our special guest.
Speaker A:So those of you who listen to the podcast regularly, which, you know, the 10 million people out there that do that on a regular basis, you will recall that our guest, our special guest this morning, Jim Veneta, joined us in the last season of the podcast, and what an incredible episode it was.
Speaker A:And so we wanted to.
Speaker A:We invited him back to join us today, and he is such a lover of early mornings.
Speaker A:He asked us to move the time earlier because he's so fresh early in the morning.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So please welcome Jim Veneta, who is a director of Student Support Services.
Speaker A:It's a broad title in.
Speaker A:In a.
Speaker A:In a school somewhere near you, in a mysterious location.
Speaker A:But we are thrilled to have Jim back to the wheelhouse today.
Speaker A:Good morning, sir.
Speaker E:Good morning.
Speaker E:It is wonderful to be back despite the early morning.
Speaker E:Those of you who can't, obviously, you can't see me.
Speaker E:My hair is still wet from my shower, but I got my coffee and I'm excited to be here.
Speaker A:It looks like he's been up for hours, right?
Speaker A:Hours or minutes, I'm not sure.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker E:Maybe our thing.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:Well, this is going to be another great conversation.
Speaker A:The whole season has been dedicated to what Alicia called this.
Speaker A:We have two choices as educators.
Speaker A:We either cultivate hope or kill dreams.
Speaker A:And we have been talking about that in various ways throughout the entire season and will continue to do so.
Speaker A:And knowing that Jim was joining us and that he's responsible in the place that he works for all sorts of decisions around how we integrate with the instructional staff, how we provide support services to all students.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And to, you know, particular students as well, that I thought it was a.
Speaker A:Would be really interesting to.
Speaker A: And again, it's: Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A: It's: Speaker A:So we know what that means.
Speaker A:But I thought it'd be really interesting to really focus the conversation around the need as we all make decisions.
Speaker A:I mean, everybody sitting in this podcast has been in a role or is still in a role where they're making lots of decisions, lots of recommendations for.
Speaker A:For that change the trajectory of a particular organization either on a daily basis.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Or in.
Speaker A:In that long term.
Speaker A:And I wonder often.
Speaker A:And I was having this conversation with a district yesterday in the great state of New York, and it's kind of where this topic came from.
Speaker A:And it is, you know, I wonder, as we are making all of these decisions, if we're really in tune with the impact of the decisions that we make on certain people.
Speaker A:And if you look at the literature, they call that looking from an equity lens.
Speaker A:And I know that that word, which is a word that is incredibly important to the people who are sitting in this podcast, is not always well received out there in the greater community because they don't understand what it means.
Speaker A:But if you think about it, looking at something from an equity lens just really helps us to think about which we should all be doing is the decisions that we make on a daily basis, who's impacted by them and who's impacted by them in a profoundly important, good way and who's impacted by them.
Speaker A:And whether that's intentional or non intentional, we hope it's not intentional in a bad way.
Speaker A:So I'm just going to throw the questions out there first so that people have them in their head and then we're going to defer to the geniuses that are in this podcast to say, hey, what does that all mean?
Speaker A:What does that all mean?
Speaker A:So looking at things from that equity lens, thinking about what each student needs and what each student brings to the table, I think these questions are super profound.
Speaker A:One, how does this, whatever this is the decision, how does this decision impact each individual and why?
Speaker A:Two, how does this decision improve, maintain, ignore or worsen?
Speaker A:This is one of my favorite questions, the experiences of each individual.
Speaker A:Three, what barriers might this raise for each individual and how can those barriers be overcome?
Speaker A:4, considering the relevant data, what opportunities or gaps can we identify?
Speaker A:Five, how will we include impacted populations in our analysis and in our decision making process?
Speaker A:Because we often ignore certain people.
Speaker A:And six, and this is my other, my second favorite question, is it possible that a specific group of students could be impacted negatively by my decision or this decision?
Speaker A:And I can't see it.
Speaker A:So I just think those are some really interesting questions.
Speaker A:And we're just going to defer to our special guests.
Speaker A:First, we're going to put him on the spot to say when you hear those or when you read those, what goes through your mind?
Speaker A:Mr.
Speaker A:Van Ada?
Speaker E:Yeah, I think the thing that is running through my mind right now is the school where I work has an incredibly broad population.
Speaker E:It's a little bit of everybody.
Speaker E:And in a perfect world, I could listen to every single person's story and know exactly what they need from them and deliver it to them.
Speaker E:It's not a perfect world.
Speaker E:We don't always hear from everybody.
Speaker E:People don't always want to share.
Speaker E:And so we have to make decisions the best we can with the information we have.
Speaker E:And early in my career, I used to find it so crippling to try to make decisions from an equity lens, because what if I get it wrong now in my career, I've gotten it wrong many, many, many times where I've made those decisions that have helped some or hurt others and learned from those.
Speaker E:And rather than letting that paralyze me, it helps me to continue to grow and do better next time.
Speaker E:And when someone says, hey, this isn't right, or hey, this hurts me, I have the opportunity to help fix it and repair our relationship or improve an experience.
Speaker E:But it is challenging to think of everyone because everyone has such different needs, especially when it comes to education.
Speaker E:And we're working with so many rigid systems and navigating around those can also be Herculean at times.
Speaker E:So it's a big topic.
Speaker A:It is a big topic.
Speaker A:I think it's an important topic when we connect that to the theme of this season, Cultivating hope or killing dreams.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think, Jim, one of the significant things in.
Speaker B:In what you said was that willingness to.
Speaker B:To listen and learn and understanding that not one of us understands every step, right?
Speaker B:And knowing that there.
Speaker B:There are missteps and there's so much opportunity to learn and to grow from others.
Speaker B:And that willingness to be open and vulnerable to that is not a trait, a characteristic that everyone holds.
Speaker B:And so to be able to create a space that allows for the individuals that whether it's the parents or the students, that they know that it's safe and that they can be honest and vulnerable because you've created that.
Speaker B:So you talk a little bit about how.
Speaker B:How do you do that?
Speaker B:How do you create a space that allows for, you know, that equity lens really through learning and understanding human beings.
Speaker E:A lot of it is taking your personal feelings and desire to be good or right out.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Like we all want to be, right?
Speaker E:We want to be seen as good.
Speaker E:The times that I know that I've failed, I was trying really hard to be seen or perceived as good.
Speaker E:And if you're messing up when it comes to equity, that's not how someone's going to see you.
Speaker E:And so taking that away.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:The times that I've had really good success when it requires some vulnerability to say, I don't know, I don't understand, I want to.
Speaker E:Would you do me the honor of telling me?
Speaker E:Because, you know, it's not everyone's job to educate us.
Speaker E:But it is an honor when someone is willing to.
Speaker E:I think back to the time I was working.
Speaker E:We had the gender inclusive living experience, which is a wonderful learning, living, learning community.
Speaker E:But from an organizational level, we were not serving those students.
Speaker E:A lot of those students were angry about how it was set up, what the experience had looked like.
Speaker E:And the resident assistant who was in charge of that experience was ready to fight combative almost toward leadership, toward any, any staff.
Speaker E:Because even before I'd gotten there, people had been getting it wrong.
Speaker E:And they knew what those students wanted because they're one of them.
Speaker E:And it took probably an entire year to win that student's trust through lots of mistakes, lots of apologies, and lots of me shutting up and being like, well, what do you want to do?
Speaker E:And how can we take what you want to do and fit it into the rules that are in place?
Speaker E:Because those rules are very rigid.
Speaker E:And we tried a lot of things and messed up a few times, but ultimately I listened.
Speaker E:And that was one of my successes where I, early on wanted so badly to be seen as an ally, and that wasn't helping.
Speaker C:So it's an equity conversation.
Speaker C:So, you know, I have to jump in early.
Speaker C:Real quick, Jim.
Speaker C:I picked up, and as you were saying, vulnerability, I literally jotted it down on my pad at the same time.
Speaker C:So I was like, oh, man, he and I are really in sync.
Speaker C:But I also want to, as someone who now works in higher ed space, I also wanted to really lift your idea and ask you to really unpack that a bit more about the damage of the optics, to say that we are doing it, but we're still in a very rigid, great term, a very rigid term system that translate translates into more of the same.
Speaker C:Yet the optics, the broad brush, the superficial paint, looks really good.
Speaker C:So if you can really deep dive that and maybe through a discussion around authentic engagement and the importance of that, live some ideas of how we can overcome and remove some of these barriers.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:Oh, geez.
Speaker E:A huge question, right?
Speaker E:But systems are big.
Speaker E:Systems are overarching, and people don't fit these big concepts easily.
Speaker E:And so I said earlier, in a perfect world, we would be able to build a relationship with every person.
Speaker E:And when you build those relationships, you foster vulnerability, you foster trust.
Speaker E:People feel safe to say what they need, and in some cases, what they need doesn't work within the systems we have.
Speaker E:And maybe you have to break some rules, Maybe you have to advocate for changing some rules.
Speaker E:Right?
Speaker E:It's not just the relationship there.
Speaker E:There is an obligation to try to affect the system.
Speaker E:But I.
Speaker E:I do onboarding for new students at my school.
Speaker E:And oh, my gosh, the barriers that folks experience, you know, a lot of it is access to technology.
Speaker E:And they don't tell us that they don't know how to check their email because they don't trust educators.
Speaker E:And when we're able to have conversations and people are embarrassed about what they don't know or what they have difficulty with.
Speaker E:And so there's a lot of personal stuff to get past to build that trust in so many cases that until we build those relationships to know better, it makes it impossible to do better.
Speaker E:And we can shout all day long, yeah, we value equity.
Speaker E:We value inclusion.
Speaker E:That's wonderful.
Speaker E:And people should hear that.
Speaker E:But if you're not backing it up, it's so obvious.
Speaker E:It is so obvious.
Speaker E:If you care about that on a personal level or not.
Speaker D:I'm.
Speaker D:I'm just letting that land.
Speaker D:So, Jim, in your prior comment, it sounded to me like what ended up changing things when you were at U of M and working with the all gender resonance situation, that when you got to the point of saying, tell me what you believe needs to happen, that that was a sea change for the conversation.
Speaker D:Is that right?
Speaker E:I think that came after some personal relational pieces.
Speaker E:This RA flat out told me, you're a white gay man.
Speaker E:I don't trust you.
Speaker E:Like, to my faith, which I was like, oh, my gosh.
Speaker E:And that hurt.
Speaker E:Like, that's a huge core part of my identity.
Speaker E:And I was like, but I'm good and I care.
Speaker E:And I want you to know that I care.
Speaker E:And that was maybe my biggest lesson.
Speaker E:It did not matter what my intentions were.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker E:It just didn't.
Speaker E:I had to take the time to show rather than.
Speaker E:And that goes back to the painting with the broad brush.
Speaker E:Right?
Speaker E:We can say all we want, that we care and we want to do good things until we show people that we're willing to listen and that we will follow through to do something about what we hear.
Speaker E:Because it's also one thing to say, oh, wow, that's really hard.
Speaker E:I'm sorry, and then do nothing.
Speaker E:That doesn't advance anything for anyone.
Speaker D:You know, I'm so grateful that you.
Speaker D:You slowed that down and then you just zoomed in a little bit.
Speaker D:Because it wasn't that moment.
Speaker D:That was the sea change.
Speaker D:It was the sea change that happened in you when you understood.
Speaker D:It's not you, Jim, that I'm objecting to as a human being.
Speaker D:And your lack of goodness it's your lack of perspective and lived experience that is unhelpful in this moment.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:And that to me is the thing that we step over so much of the time if we're coming from an outside orientation and we're being asked permission into the conversation and the work.
Speaker D:You know, I just, I feel like when we, when we start from that point of view, then we begin to realize, hey, if we want to have a conversation, maybe the first question among several first questions that we can contribute is what's keeping people silent right now?
Speaker D:And your comment about the shame so many of our families and students feel around things that my privilege allows me to look past, that keeps them silent, that keeps them not able to engage.
Speaker D:And so it's one thing to say, yes, I'm committed to equity, but it sounds like what you're asking us to do is that's just the door handle when you want to walk through that threshold.
Speaker D:Here are several things that require our sensitivity and attention from the get go in order for the equity conversation to even begin.
Speaker C:So Michael, I would say that we could level that up.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So what I'm hearing Jim saying is it's not only relationship.
Speaker C:I heard the term allyship used and that's a strong construct.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It's, it's.
Speaker C:I'm going to take my inherited privilege out of the space because relationship and allyship is not self proclaimed.
Speaker C:They have to be earned.
Speaker C:And we're going to come and co create that energy together so that we can move forward collaboratively.
Speaker C:Jim, I'd like to hear your response to that because those are my thoughts and my studies and my own lived experiences around that.
Speaker C:So if you could lean into that, I'd greatly appreciate that.
Speaker E:Oh absolutely.
Speaker E:And yeah, I can't claim to be an ally to any, any identity or community.
Speaker E:I can try to be right.
Speaker E:We, we can aim to ally ourselves.
Speaker E:Verb right.
Speaker E:To, to be an ally is like taking on an identity and we don't get to decide that for ourselves.
Speaker E:And even, you know, I may have made inroads with, with that one resident assistant that I mentioned and that community there and those people.
Speaker E:That does not mean that I get to claim I'm an ally to the trans or non binary community unilaterally.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:I learned a lot that helps me to ally better verb, but not as a noun.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:And so there's another thought that I had too about shame that ties into allyship.
Speaker E:To ally yourselves with people, you have to work on your own shame around your own privilege.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:That's that fear of being good.
Speaker E:And I think it is very common for people to feel ashamed of privilege because we didn't earn it.
Speaker E:We didn't necessarily ask for it in most cases.
Speaker E:And it's natural to feel badly about that and to want to look and feel good and say, no, but I care about X, Y and Z identity, about, you know, others who don't have the same privilege.
Speaker E:And that, like, you know, that's the painting on the building, but not the internal structure at all.
Speaker E:And so to ally is to do the work on the inside of the building, essentially.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:Use the loose building analogy.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker B:I was.
Speaker B:I was thinking that about, you know, I can put a pin on my.
Speaker B:My shirt.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That says that I'm a safe space, and that's important.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:But that alone, you know, the painting on the building, the pin on my shirt doesn't.
Speaker B:Doesn't.
Speaker B:Doesn't mean anything.
Speaker B:It's the.
Speaker B:The doorknob, as Michael said, like, that's the entry point to what that looks like, but who I am at my core and how I am willing to engage with other humans and to learn.
Speaker B:I think about so many conversations that Grant and I have had over the years because of our friendship.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I've been able.
Speaker B:Not from the beginning, didn't feel like that, but growing and learning in his willingness to help me understand him, his community, all of these pieces, and being able to go to him and say, I got questions.
Speaker B:I want to know, I want to understand, and I don't want to be in a space that I'm offending anyone, so help me.
Speaker B:And that relationship has been the key to that.
Speaker A:And yet my perspective in that community is only my perspective in that community.
Speaker A:It is only my lived experiences.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And my hopes and dreams for that community.
Speaker A:But you'll get a lot of different voices and a lot of different stories and a lot of different points of view.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The more you engage with, you know, other members of that community as well.
Speaker E:You know, Kathy, you mentioned you could wear a pin.
Speaker E:I'm an ally.
Speaker E:Or, you know, I'm safe.
Speaker E:And I.
Speaker E:I have found in my own experience.
Speaker E:And as.
Speaker E:As a gay man, if I'm looking at people who want to be an ally to me or times where I've been trying to be an ally to others, the louder you claim allyship, the louder you say, I'm safe, the less safe you seem to be.
Speaker E:It is paradoxical versus the times where someone has come to me and been like, I haven't been safe for you, or when they acknowledge mistakes, acknowledge the impact that they've had.
Speaker E:That creates safety.
Speaker E:That's that vulnerability.
Speaker E:And circling back to, we can't claim allyship because the louder we do, the less trustworthy we seem.
Speaker E:It's, you know, you hear the stories of nice guys.
Speaker E:I'm a nice guy.
Speaker E:Women stay away from those men almost always because they're not nice and they're trying too hard to seem safe.
Speaker C:The damaging optics.
Speaker E:Exactly.
Speaker E:And insincerity.
Speaker B:And we see that as adults.
Speaker B:Our kids see that.
Speaker B:The students that we are entrusted with see that.
Speaker B:So whether that's in a physical space, that's in a virtual space, they hear it, they see it.
Speaker B:They read right through who truly is, is there as an adult to be able to support them with whomever they are.
Speaker B:And all of those layers of who they are as human beings, they see that sincerity, and they see for sure the insincerity.
Speaker E:Oh, yeah.
Speaker C:So Grant opened with a question.
Speaker C:Grant, could you repeat your last question?
Speaker C:Because I had an addition to that, and I think we can.
Speaker C:I'd love to hear Jim's thought on this one as well.
Speaker C:The last question, Grant, please.
Speaker A:The last question was, is it possible that a specific group of students could be negatively impacted by this decision?
Speaker A:And I can't see it.
Speaker C:Or in addition, I don't care.
Speaker A:Oh, that's a good one.
Speaker C:So I don't see it.
Speaker A:And I don't care to see it.
Speaker C:And I don't care because I don't even.
Speaker C:You don't even matter to me.
Speaker C:This really bridges all the conversations we've had this season, right.
Speaker C:Are we promoting and cultivating hope, or are we killing dreams?
Speaker C:And I'd love for us to really unpack some of that, because as we come, you know, towards, you know, some of the final sessions for this season, I think we're getting on a few things, right?
Speaker C:We know it's not a band aid approach, right.
Speaker C:We really have to hit those root causes, Right.
Speaker C:It can't be the lipstick on the pig.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It can't be the painting.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It can't be the pin.
Speaker C:What is some of that deep stuff there that we really need to sit with ourselves with, Right?
Speaker C:Self regulate, self realize, self actualize, reflect.
Speaker C:I'd love to hear some more conversation around that.
Speaker A:So I'll go first, right?
Speaker A:Because we've been talking a lot throughout this entire season and earlier seasons about the power of asking questions, and I think that's absolutely huge.
Speaker A:And I know that in powerful student care, I know that in the book that Alicia and Rubin wrote, there are this idea of you got to look in the mirror, you got to surface your own mental models, you got to interrogate them, you got to think about what your actions are doing or not contributing in positive or negative ways to the lives of students.
Speaker A:So I think, and this is really hard for educators, right?
Speaker A:I think it's really, really hard to look in the mirror and to think about the fact that this kid might be struggling in your classroom or in your school because of your actions, that it's not the student who's struggling alone, it's you struggling to figure out what that student needs.
Speaker A:Or as Alicia said just a minute ago, or don't care.
Speaker E:I'm reflecting on your question, Alicia, about, you know, times when we maybe don't care, right?
Speaker E:And I think when challenged with something like in that story and a big injustice, would I speak up and stand against it?
Speaker E:I think yes.
Speaker E:However, those quiet day to day moments of inequity aren't as visible, don't seem as egregious.
Speaker E:I'm well aware within the systems I work, systems are there for ease.
Speaker E:We need bigger processes and systems to function in our daily work.
Speaker E:And I think about families that are in our school who are in extreme poverty and all of the barriers they may be facing.
Speaker E:I don't always see that.
Speaker E:I just see, hey, the kid's not coming to school or the kid's not doing what they're supposed to do, right?
Speaker E:We've got rules we need to follow.
Speaker E:And it is easy for me to be frustrated and it's easy for me to blame the parent or the students and say, well, they are not doing what they should do.
Speaker E:Or, you know, why don't they just fill in the blank?
Speaker E:And sometimes, yeah, personal accountability matters.
Speaker E:But have I created an environment where personal accountability can be taken?
Speaker E:And do they know that?
Speaker E:I have seen many times.
Speaker E:The team that I work with is incredible.
Speaker E:They do much more direct student contact than I do.
Speaker E:I was very upset.
Speaker E:There was a student who they were not going to come to state testing.
Speaker E:The student worked at their mom's store and worked long hours, far more than I think was legally allowed for a student of their age.
Speaker E:And I was like, well, we can, you know, reach out to the state.
Speaker E:We could get that work permit revoked, we could do this, we could report them.
Speaker E:And my, my team member who I supervised was like, Jim, they need that.
Speaker E:Because I got really caught up in the system and I was being so uncharitable and there.
Speaker E:So it was like, that's not the answer, right, you, you're getting angry because people aren't fitting into our systems.
Speaker E:But systems don't fit.
Speaker E:People don't fit into the system perfectly.
Speaker E:And I need constant reminders of that because it is these daily decisions.
Speaker E:Okay, well then how else do we address this?
Speaker E:Because this kid deserves an education and deserves to work and help support the family.
Speaker E:And there's gotta be a middle ground.
Speaker E:We need to have conversation.
Speaker E:And I think about how many biases I have that I have not examined or that I think I've examined until they're challenged.
Speaker E:Right?
Speaker E:And it is a constant, lifelong work to dig those out.
Speaker E:And it hurts because we still want to be perceived as good.
Speaker E:And we don't want to look at these ugly things, thoughts that we have or ugly beliefs that we didn't, that we wouldn't even acknowledge to ourselves, that we hold.
Speaker E:And they exist in all of us.
Speaker E:Uncharitable, unkind, prejudice.
Speaker E:And, you know, something big can happen.
Speaker E:And I'll speak out because I know that's wrong.
Speaker E:But those little quiet moments are where the rubber meets the road.
Speaker E:And that isn't pretty.
Speaker E:You don't get glory for it.
Speaker E:You just do it or don't.
Speaker E:And the not caring isn't necessarily about.
Speaker E:I don't care about these people, but it's hard and inconvenient and it requires work of me.
Speaker E:And not, not pretty, glorious work.
Speaker E:Just day to day grind.
Speaker D:The day to day grind of a better habit of being.
Speaker E:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Back to the very beginning when we started this conversation.
Speaker B:It's about the impact of our decisions.
Speaker B:So either we are moving forward, that we are using wherever we're at as a sphere of influence to positively impact or negatively put up barriers and damage for our students and families, or to.
Speaker E:Do nothing as a decision.
Speaker E:And that's, I think, most often where inequity thrives.
Speaker A:And when we do nothing, are we cultivating hope or killing a dream?
Speaker C:To be complicit is to permit whatever is going on at that time to happen.
Speaker C:And it's damaging.
Speaker C:So you are killing dreams.
Speaker A:And that, my friends, brings us to the end of this episode, right?
Speaker A:Because no matter what we do, right, no matter what we do or how we think about anything, it still comes down to those two questions.
Speaker A:Does our action or inaction, does our attitude, does our way of thinking, does our everything that Jim has talked about so eloquently in this particular episode, does it cultivate a hope or does it kill a dream?
Speaker A:And are we brave enough to understand the difference between the two?
Speaker A:Jim Vaneda, thank you so much for joining us in the Wheelhouse today.
Speaker E:Sir, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker E:These are wonderful conversations and while I don't think we solved the problem of inequity today, it's really important that you know to be included in this conversation and I really appreciate it.
Speaker A:And that's a wrap of episode 9 in this season of the Wheelhouse.
Speaker A:A special thank you to our dear friend Jim Vaneda for joining us again in this episode.
Speaker A:Are you a like minded educator who's committed to promoting hope?
Speaker A:Subscribe to our all new wheelhouse newsletter@thewheelhouse.substack.com how are you being an ally, both as a noun and a verb for each and every student that you are responsible for?
Speaker A:And how can we here at the Wheelhouse help you reach these aspirational leaps and jumps?
Speaker A:You know, we really do want to hear from you and we hope that you'll subscribe to our all new Wheelhouse newsletter.
Speaker A:The Wheelhouse is a production of Students Matter, LLC.
Speaker A:New episodes of season nine will drop every Tuesday beginning February 25th and will continue now, extending through May 20th.
Speaker A:Our show's theme music, Off We Go, was written and performed by Cody Martin and obtained through soundstripe.com youm can find me on LinkedIn or on Bluesky.
Speaker A:And of course stop by our website and check out what we offer at www.ourstudentsmatter.org.
Speaker A:you can subscribe to this podcast on either itunes, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker A:Coming up in the next episode of the Wheelhouse, Mel King, followed closely by Matthew Pinchonot and finally, a two part reunion of our guests to wrap up Season nine.
Speaker A:Until next time, Remember, we got.
